SlaveofAllaah wrote: |
Brother let me see the Practical point of view,
1) Freeing all the slaves at once, is not viable for the economy though you have touched these points, I will elaborate. Now a slave is in a house being fed, let me consider a man. Now freeing him will be a calamity, where will he find a job and this will hurt the economy with larger unemployment and a state of richer getting richer and poorer getting poorer. For woman, if she had to be released then this is a further calamity and I dont have elaborate and is self explained. Now I will quote a short eg. In India two years ago Dancebars(women),were banned in Bombay. Now, what happened was all the employed dancers were left in a lurch. The next step women rights come up to save there grace, terming that, what will happen to these dancer who are left alone. Not enough political parties interrupted now thousands of dancers were left government did not realise what will they do in the future for there living. 2) Allaah knows the practical nature thats why, Allaah in the Quran did not forbid unlike the pork and alcohol because this would take atleast a couple of generations. And to free a slave it costed a fortune, we got to have lots of money. Salman al farisi, sahaba was a slave under a jew, he was freed from him after quite a long time. Imagine slave under a jew and it took time for the Musims to free them. During the time of Omar bin Abdul Aziz, it was evident that withing 3 generations the whole of Islam world was liberated and was quite rich, and slaves were freed from the state tax collected. Salam |
Myr wrote: |
Salam Ahmed, all, |
Myr wrote: |
I am not fully convinced by the translation of "tah'rir raqabattun" to mean "free a slave". |
Myr wrote: |
The expression literally means "to free a neck" |
Myr wrote: |
so a person whose freedom is restricted and this can be somebody in jail, a prisoner of war or else and not necessary a "slave". |
Myr wrote: |
A "slave" has really the meaning of being a "property" of somebody else |
Myr wrote: |
(3abdoun mam'louk in the Quran) while someone with "a restricted neck" can merely means his freedom has been taken away so to have it back a bail has to be paid like here in the US/Canada and that's what I believe God is enjoining us to do. |
Myr wrote: |
And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr. |
AhmedBahgat wrote: |
As you know that slavery existed before Islam, and certainly it still exists after Islam (which may look like Islam ignored the subject for many ignorant humans). You can not also deny that slavery exists in non Muslim countries as well. |
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Slavery is never encouraged by Allah, in fact many punishments in the Quran are freeing a slave, the point that I accept is this, because it was never prohibited by Allah, then the rule of thumb that it is ok to happen. Also using your own argument in the prostitution thread, in which you stated that the Quran never said prostitution is good, and then it can not be promoted by the Quran. Same argument is here, slavery is never promoted by Islam because we never read in the Quran that slavery is good. The only difference between the two issues (slavery and prostitution) from the Quran perspective is simply, the Quran prohibited Zina, which is the main theme for prostitution, i.e. prostitution must be prohibited unlike slavery which is never prohibited. I also believe that slavery is not prohibited in the other two major religions as far as I remember; please correct me if I am wrong.
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Being not prohibited by Allah is something about which I can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t question Allah, Allah simply can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be questioned regarding His laws and His actions, why He did not prohibit that and why He prohibited that, can not be the business of any creature, |
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however if I let my poor human judgement to think of a logical reason of not prohibiting slavery by Allah, then I will easily think that a slave literally have no mean of income, therefore being a slave under a wise master is far better than being a homeless in the streets, indeed, in Australia a 24 years old homeless was bashed to death in a church ground about a year ago, the community was shocked and outraged, because that homeless man was kind and cheerful despite the tough conditions he was living in, therefore a slave under the support and protection of a wise master is far better than a lonely poor homeless who is exposed to the environment which carries a lot of danger with it and in such case the danger costed him his life after being bashed by a bunch of thugs. |
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Another story for example is from Egypt, my sister found a young 23 years old black lady who has no father and no mother, she does not even have any relative, absolutely none, my sister was told that the girl is a result of an illegal relationship and both abandoned her years ago, my sister took her to her home and now she lives with her, my sister protects her, supports her and gives her money, I witnessed it so many times when I went to Egypt, she is like someone from the family, while I am there I give her my cloth to iron and give her a decent amount of Egyptian pounds, you can imagine how she is happy by that, the lady has no option but to obey the orders of my sister, she can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t question my sister in any thing, she must do what she is told, that was mutual with absolute no force, also it is not like my sister had an agreement with her to be her slave, and indeed, she is exactly like a slave, however a slave that is well supported, protected, fed, and given money, a slave that has all her freedom to leave any time if she wants, and sure she won�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t because she has no where to go, she even does not have the Egyptian citizenship, now imagine what this young lady may face if my sister didn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t become her master? I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sure she would have turned into a prostitute, that is even more dangerous than being homeless in the streets, and yet she will still be a slave to a pimp whom she must obey or she will be harmed, can you see the difference? In my last visit to Egypt I was informed that my sister through her connections managed to make her the Egyptian citizenship, can you see how the master is caring for the slave? |
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I see nothing wrong with slavery as long as it is practised by wise and capable human who can provide protection, support and equality to any slave he/she may possess, at the end of the day Allah always encouraged us to free the slaves, here is three examples from the Quran, but bear in mind, I honestly found that any slave who is treated fair, humanly and is considered a member of the family, decline to be freed to search for another life opportunities somewhere else. Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s look at the three cases where Allah ordered the believers to free a slave: |
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And finally:
And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a slave before they touch each other; to that you are admonished (to conform); and Allah is Aware of what you do. [The Quran ; 58:3] وَالَّذِينَ يُظَاهِرُونَ مِن نِّسَائِهِمْ ثُمَّ يَعُودُونَ لِمَا قَالُوا فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مِّن قَبْلِ أَن يَتَمَاسَّا ذَلِكُمْ تُوعَظُونَ بِهِ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌ (3) -> In the past, men used to stop sleeping with their wives when they are being upset with them, so a husband tells his wife angrily You are like my mother from now on, i.e. he will not be able to sleep with her any more, and of course this was totally BS, certainly he will sleep with her again, the law in here is, to free any slave before he can sleep with his wife again : And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said , they should free a slave before they touch each other |
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See mate, I consider anyone who works for money is a slave to the one who pays him/her that money, i.e. the reward that must be paid, logically speaking, this is a more accurate and logical definition of slavery, I do understand that people take it in the most literal way, like buying a human for some money and that human will be considered a slave to the one who bought him, then abuse the sh!t out of the slave and may even shackle him because he/she is a slave, however not all people do that, and certainly we may hardly see one case of humans on sale in any part of the world now days, in the primitive world however I accept that they suffered from such flaw when humans were bought and sold for even a cheap price, an example of such is prophet Yusuf, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look and see that not all masters buy slaves to abuse them: |
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The moral of the above story is briefly this, possessing a slave by buying him/her for a huge price, or for a cheap price or for nothing, does not give the buyers any right to abuse them, rather to give them an honourable place, now let me shift to my logical argument that all of us are slaves one way or another, for me, a slave is someone who is forced to work for someone to make a living, and indeed all of us are, even the president of the USA, he is a slave, the most executive slave on earth however, and possibly he is not forced to work as such type of slavery, but who won�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t take it my friend, this is slavery exactly as the above verse is talking about, Obama is going to be paid a decent package with high establishment and power in the land but he is going to work fukin hard for it almost on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week for 4 or 8 years, but we can not deny that he will be given a very honourable place, am I logically right, my friend? |
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See even if Obama could not work as such highest level of a slave, he must work for someone else to make a living, when the humans do not need to work for someone else and have enough money to support the living, they are still slaves, certainly for themselves, they have to always clean, cook and do what is needed for them to live, such type of slavery is not even sufficient for such people so they get pets and the humans become their slaves, by working for them all the time. And certainly at the end of the day, and according to the Quran we are all slaves to Allah, i.e. we must work hard for Him and He will give us our reward at the end, the slavery imposed on us by Allah is quite different however, we are given a little freedom to do what we want in this life and even ignore working for Him totally, and if that is the case then a horrible abuse will happen on the JD and if the opposite happens in this life, which is working hard for Him and doing exactly what He said that must be done, while also enjoying this life which is very short of course (it is almost nothing on the timeline, not even a dot) then a very honourable place will be granted, it is really as simple as this. For Allah to make us live from the first place and making the earth ready of us with abundant wealth and favours, is enough of an honourable place that He gave us. Now, if you want to debate this issue trying hard to flaw Allah, be my guest, I decided now to only reply to this part if you want to debate it. |
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The moral of all the above is simple, slavery will always be there between the humans and themselves and between Allah and his slaves (the humans and others), the only way which is logically can give me the impression of a non slavery life is to be granted such high honourable place (paradise), the reward that is promised by Allah or by any other god (if any) for that matter, at the end of time, if it sounds like the stories of the ancient to you, then show me how can a world without slavery continue to move forward. See pal, life will be meaningless without slavery and would not move forward, based on the accurate definition of slavery under the way I see it, which is almost the same that we learnt from the story of prophet Yusuf above |
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I am sure that you know well that many employers abuse their employees around the world, but I am not going to get into the human flaws of some masters abusing their slaves with 100s of types of abuse, this is in no way a teaching of the Quran as been shown above, yet the slaves are so highly respected and honoured in the Quran, to a degree that it encourages the men and women to marry from their slaves, let me show you the following example:
And marry those among you who are single and those who are pious among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are poor, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing. [Al Quran ; 24:32] وَأَنْكِحُوا الْأَيَامَىٰ مِنْكُمْ وَالصَّالِحِينَ مِنْ عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ ۚ إِنْ يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ يُغْنِهِمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ (32) -> Can you see the great teaching of the Quran regarding the slaves, this is morality at its maximum, the verse commands the believing men and the believing women to marry the slaves from the women and the salves from the men if they are singles and pious because those slaves are poor: And marry those among you who are single and those who are pious among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, , i.e. freeing the slaves in masses, this is exactly like the story of Yusuf when the man and his wife took Yusuf as their own child, in 24:32 the slaves will be freed and become true family members by marrying them. I would like that you also take note of these two words referring to the slaves from the men and women: عِبَادِكُمْ وَإِمَائِكُمْ, because I will use it in my reply to Ma Malakat Aymanikum allegation. Now ask yourself mate, if being a slave is something that is shameful, how come the verse above orders the believing men and believing women to marry the poor ones form the slaves? |
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Can you also notice the accuracy of such verse by saying to marry them if they are poor: إِنْ يَكُونُوا فُقَرَاءَ , i.e. if they are poor , this logically means that there might be slaves who are rich, which indirectly confirms the logical meaning of slavery that I thoroughly explained all along. For example a woman may be working as a cleaner in a hotel, cleaning hundreds of filthy toilets every day, she must do it otherwise she wonÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t live, imagine now that she was also abused in her reward, by giving her peanuts every month, certainly she is a slave, not to you but a slave to someone else, would you take her as a wife over a well educated woman assuming that both have the same looks and figures? Most likely not, I myself will think about it many times first and even not sure what I will do, the verse above is telling me to chose the one who cleans the toilets over the other one, and again, this is morality at its maximum. |
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At least the teaching above means freeing the slaves and even make them equal to us, see man, I believe if Allah has prohibited slavery and made it a great sin, then no one would have escaped committing such sin, this because we all are slaves one way or another, and we all have been through situations when our masters give us a tough time by abusing their mastery positions, have a read through this, mate, I am also sorry that I do not have the url for it but I have included the source: |
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As I told you in my first reply, that slavery is part of the test, in fact the majority of the test is based on our dealings with each other, only a small part of the test is about believing in Allah and His messages, |
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One of my favourite shows of FoxTel is a show called Dirty Jobs, in such show I see workers (slaves) doing some jobs that I am sure me and you will never accept to do, it is like the ones who do it are worse slaves than us (we too are slaves because we work for others to give us a reward so we live), now if we are all equal, who do you reckon will do such slavery jobs?, NONE, I tell you, see how the degrees of slavery are so important for life to continue on Earth, bearing in mind that the humans are the successors of the earth as the verse stated above, i.e. it is their responsibility to develop the earth into something better. |
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You spent some of your life studying some tough sh!t that many other did not bother with it, therefore you are in higher degree than those who do not know how to do it, it is like you are an experienced slave, yet what you learn will be useless if you can not find a company to enslave you, so you do what they want and they pay you a wage at the end, THIS IS SLAVERY, PAL, now if you are getting payed good wages, and offered flexible working hours and even given bonuses and education/training, then certainly you are a slave who is given an honourable place. |
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Therefore according to reality, you have no argument and I do have one, this is because of the following reasons:
1) You are talking about a world that only exists in your Barbie world, a world without slavery. |
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2) It seems you do not understand that the logical meaning of a slave is that, you are forced to work for someone to take a wage for you to live. |
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3) Abusing such slavery right by any master can not be used as an argument against slavery because we also have masters who honour slaves, protect them, educate them and give them good money. |
All_Brains wrote: |
Now who put these people in a lower level to start with? |
All_Brains wrote: |
Why would you marry a slave if you already have sex with her? |
All_Brains wrote: |
How can you marry a woman who just had her husband killed and call this a marriage? |
All_Brains wrote: |
And finally a big question for you Ahmed, why didn't Muhammad "according to the Quran" wait for 3 months (Iddah) before marrying Safiyah following the slaughter of her husband???? |
BMZ wrote: |
Salaams, Ahmed
I can read FFI but I cannot write. The name BMZ stands banned. lol! Please give me the links and I would like to read what the goons are talking about. BMZ |
AhmedBahgat wrote: | ||
Salam mate The corrupt Ms moved my comment about Slavery in the NT and OT to another forum, which is so bias and stupid, they moved it to this link http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60305 however I put it on All_Brains site for him to reply there and even comtinue the debate on there http://freefaith.myfreeforum.org/sutra5144.php#5144 Salam |
parvez_mushtaq wrote: |
Assalamualaikum Rahamatullahi Wabrakathahu
i have read your post on ff regarding slavery , ahmed i think , i agree with A_B with a point that you have compared slavery with employment but , i think , quran clearly differentiates between slavery and employment , even in the chapter 12 that you were talking about , yusuf(pbuh) was a slave with the master when he was made commit the sin by the women but later he was a employ for the king and more over , the type of slavery they are talking about was stopped in quran much early as in 090.013 YUSUFALI: (It is:) freeing the bondman; this is because this was a early meccan surah i BELIEVE (note that i never said "i think" but i say B E L I E V E) that after this verse neither our prophet(pbuh) or his companions would ever had a salve one more thing i want to say about this verse is , as per this verse , for a pious layman Muslim , quran stops slavery however , for a scholar, who investigates about the chronology there may be a exception AllAH HAFIZ |