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Class Discussion - 22:40
- Thu 24 May, 2007 7:11 am
Post subject: 22:40
Hello

Another case of language manipulation caught red handed on the kuffar web site free-minds.org:

Samia wrote:
Salaam Ahmed
فيها is correct, not فيهم , just as it is correct for "masaajid", which is also plural. Remember that the plural for non human is treated as a singular feminine.


Greeting Samia

I'm sorry I can't accept your argument that the plural for non human is treated as a singular feminine, it can only be as such if there is only one non human plural in the sentence , but NOT when have more than one non human plural with a WAW in between, if you search the Quran you will find that the singular masculine "Fi Hi" and the dual "Fi Huma" are used for non humans as well, what is noted that when there is dual non human plurals with a waw in between like "Alsamaa Wa Al Ard" the word must be "Fi Huma", i.e. when we have more than two plurals then it has to be "Fi Huma" or ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Fi Hunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, I have never heard of the rule you mentioned unless it is ONE NON HUMAN PLUAR in the sentence

Actually sound wise it is very odd within the sentence with many waws between the non human plural, UNLESS IT IS ONLY REFERRING TO AL MASAAJID

Let me show you a couple of examples where the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Fi Hunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? which is Plural feminine is used for non humans feminine plural and humans feminine plural:

And they ask you a decision about women. Say: Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
[The Quran ; 4:127]

وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ وَمَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الْكِتَابِ فِي يَتَامَى النِّسَاء الَّلاتِي لاَ تُؤْتُونَهُنَّ مَا كُتِبَ لَهُنَّ وَتَرْغَبُونَ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ وَالْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الْوِلْدَانِ وَأَن تَقُومُواْ لِلْيَتَامَى بِالْقِسْطِ وَمَا تَفْعَلُواْ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِهِ عَلِيمًا (127)

-> See, Hihunna is used with human feminine plural


And made the moon therein a light, and made the sun a lamp?
[The Quran ; 71:16]

وَجَعَلَ الْقَمَرَ فِيهِنَّ نُورًا وَجَعَلَ الشَّمْسَ سِرَاجًا (16)

-> In here Fihunna is used with feminine non human plural (the seven skies)

Here is an example for the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Fi Huma????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? used with non human dual and non human singular:

And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has spread forth in both of them of living beings; and when He pleases He is all-powerful to gather them together.
[The Quran ; 42:29]

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِمَا مِن دَابَّةٍ وَهُوَ عَلَى جَمْعِهِمْ إِذَا يَشَاء قَدِيرٌ (29)

-> See, Fihuma is used with dual (non human plural and a singular)

Samia wrote:
I am not discussing duals. Dual is not plural. The verse we were discussing has all plurals, no duals.


AhmedBahgat wrote:
Actually DUAL can be considered Plural, I think there might be examples in the Quran, but I need to find it lateron


Greeting Samia

Can you please check the above two comments by you and myself before you continue reading this comment, thanks,

Now as you have seen above that you said that we are not discussing duals, however I stated that dual can be considered plural and I even mentioned that there might be an example from the Quran, Al Hamdullelah I found it and Subhan Allah it is about the two words (Fi + Damir)

Let me start with this verse:

And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has spread forth in both of them of living beings; and when He pleases He is all-powerful to gather them together.
[The Quran ; 42:29]

وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِمَا مِن دَابَّةٍ وَهُوَ عَلَى جَمْعِهِمْ إِذَا يَشَاء قَدِيرٌ (29)

-> As you can see Allah is informing us that the creation of the heaven and earth is a sign, as well all living things IN BOTH OF THEM (Fi Huma): ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِمَا مِن دَابَّة????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has spread forth in both of them of living beings;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, FiHuma is used for a non human dual (Al Samaawat wa Al Ard ), please be aware that Al Samaawat is plural as you know, i.e. a non human plural MATOOF ala non human singular (there is a waw in between), therefore the words (Fi + Damir). MUST REFLECT THAT If it meant to be for both of them (according to the grammar AND MOST IMPORTANTLY TO THE COMMON SENSE, this can only be refelected by adding a dual or plural damir to the word Fi., in the above verse a dual damir ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Huma????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? was used.

In the next example, we read the same dual (Al Samaawat wa Al Ard) but the words used are not Fihuma rather Fihunna, i.e. the dual is dealt as plural exactly as I stated earlier:

Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is in them; and He has power over all things.
[The Quran ; 5:120]

لِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا فِيهِنَّ وَهُوَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (120)

 See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا فِيهِنَّ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is in them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, can you see the word Fihunna?, why is that Samia?, well it is because as I stated earlier that the dual can be treated as plural, something else I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure you know of, that Fihunna is feminine, again why is that Samia?, because Al Ard and Al Samaawat are both feminine words, if one of them is feminine and the other is masculine, then it has to be Fihum, i.e. a mix of feminine and masculine must be treated as masculine.

Now let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s assume that one of the above two verses we have the word Fiha after Al Samaawat wa Al Ard, like this :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Khalaqa Al Samaawat wa Al Ard wa Ma Batha Fiha????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? this can only mean that Fiha referees to Al Ard ONLY, do you get it sister?, it can only refer to both if it is Fihuma or Fihunna.

Now, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s apply the above on 22:40:

Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty.
[The Quran ; 22:40]

الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِمْ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ (40)

-> See what it says: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? we have 4 plurals MATOOF ala each other using 3 Waws in between ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Fiha????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? that followed after is singular, therefore it can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be applied to all 4 entities, you can apply it to all 4 entities if the word Fiha is either Fihum or Fihunna, and I believe it should be Fihunna because all 4 plural words mentioned are feminine, if the 4 plural words are a mix of feminine and masculine words then it has to be Fihum

Unfortunately I could not find an example of such use with the word Fihum as you requested, however that request by you is unrealistic and has no merit because the Quran is not a grammar book that we should find an example for every possible use of any word nor it is a scientific book as you know, but I say it had enough to refute the claim that mentioning Allah name a lot applies to the cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, THIS IS 100% wrong grammatically speaking.

Now logically speaking we should recognise with ease that mentioning Allah name a lot can only happen in the Masaajid, this is because of the following:

1) The word Sawaam3, means High building and it has nothing to do with any religion
2) The word Bai3 , means Churches and we know well that they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t mention Allah name in there, and even if they do, they mention Jesus and Mary more
3) Salawaat, while it may look as such, logically speaking many pray to others but Allah

Only the Masaajid that the name of Allah is mentioned the most in them, that is why the word Fiha is singular feminine

What do you think sister Samia?, would that deserve a slam dunk? (no offence and please dont be touchy as some mods in here)

I guess it deserves one



Take care Samia
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