How about you post that thread (link above) on that web site?
Let me know bro
Cheers
- Wed 28 Oct, 2009 12:42 am
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I requested this Protestant Christian to reply to my article(Who Has Got the Holy Spirit) and after so many days he came back with his crap.
Christian Replied
First, let me say I can understand why you might think you have proven Christianity false. I remember before I became a Christian that I made very similar statements. To understand what is going on here, we must recognize that your comment is actually two completely separate questions in one.
First, how can different people, each claiming to have the Holy Spirit, say opposite things? It is disappointing to watch other people who claim to be Christian misrepresenting God. There have been Christians down through the ages that have used the Holy Spirit as a type of trump card to give their own selfish desires a masquerade of divine authorship.
Jesus was very clear about the Holy Spirit,
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
Jesus tells us how to know whether what we are experiencing is our own flesh fooling us, or whether God via the Holy Spirit is speaking. 1) What He says glorifies Jesus, and 2) He will never contradict what He says. In your two examples, it is easy to see that these people do not have the true Spirit. In the case of the woman who killed her son, Jesus never commanded for anyone to do that. In the case of the JW, his statement about Jesus does not glorify Him given that Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh. These examples are obvious counterfeits and easy to recognize for those who have the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, you quote Mark 16, which you use as some type of proof text to test whether someone is Christian. This type of mistake is one many Muslims make, neglecting to read the context of the words spoken. Jesus is here commissioning the disciples to proclaim the good news of His death and resurrection throughout the world.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
Thank you for bringing up this verse. Even today, we see missionaries who take the good news of Jesus to the remotest parts of the world, and many signs such as these do in fact follow them. There are many accounts of miraculous happenings of the types mentioned. I can give you several wonderful biographies of missionaries who have experienced these miracles first hand. Your expectations that these specific miracles would happen ?????????????????????¢??on demand?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? trivialize God?????????????????????¢??s powers. These miracles are not some kind of magic act that we Christians can perform as if we were pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Rather, they are a promise that should we be called to be missionaries to other parts of the world, divine protection will follow. The fact that miracles do follow present day missionaries again proves Jesus to be who He said He was, the Son of God.
As it happens, Satan gave the same accusation to Jesus Himself.
5Then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
The devil said ?????????????????????¢??Jesus, if you are really the Son of God, do this miracle now at my command.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? God doesn?????????????????????¢??t work that way. God does not spread the good news of Jesus by sword, or by political system, or by any worldly method. Rather, He changes hearts one at a time. The miracles which may then follow will happen on God?????????????????????¢??s timetable, not ours. I myself have seen miraculous premonitions, but I cannot command them to come. God does not take orders from me, you, or any other human. Yet He gives the possibility of divine intervention to all those who go to preach His Word through our world. Praise God for revealing His true nature as Father, Son, and Spirit.
Thank you Zack for your excellent question.[u]
- Wed 28 Oct, 2009 12:47 am
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I replied back
Thank you for your dumb comment Robert, I am replying you in the order of your paragraphs so that you understand it well and hope you'll do the same.
1. I don't "think" I prove some born again Christians to be liars, I "know" that I prove they are liars. In short, I don't "think" that, but I "know" that. I have to dismiss your claim that you are a Christian. You were a Christian when you were born, but you are not a Christian any more, in that you don't follow Christ(peace be upon him), you follow your buddy Satan.
2. Yes, you got it right and you are among those "born agains" who misinterpret the message of God.
3. Good quote from the Bible Robert. I have to admit that sometimes you use your sense.
4. You are saying that the Woman was wrong because Jesus will never command anyone to kill, right? How about the following verse:
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. [Luke 19:26-27]
May be the holy spirit(or I should say the dirty spirit) knew that the baby will grow up to be the enemy of Jesus, So the Woman was commanded to kill the baby.
Regarding the JW, he was indeed glorifying Jesus. Why do you think glorifying means escalating Jesus to be God? If Jesus wanted his followers to believe that he was indeed the same person as God then why not simply say "I am God"? Are you insane?
All the Muslims of the world, 100% glorify Jesus, in that the Muslims believe that he was one of the mightiest messengers of God and was one of the best personalities ever lived on this planet.
Let's apply this test to the the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him). Prophet Muhammad
i. Glorified Jesus (He was made to Glorify Jesus in the Quran)
ii. He didn't contradict (Find one contradiction in the Quran, please post your "contradictions" on free-islam)
Why don't you follow Muhammad then?
Let's apply this test to Paul. Remember what Paul said:
Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.[1 Corinthians 7:25-]
But the holy spirit does not speak on His own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak. Paul spoke here of his own initiative and unfortunately it was somehow inserted into the "scripture". If he had no commandment from Lord, he should have kept his mouth shut. Obviously, Paul failed the test here.
Finally, let's apply test you Robert. Let me use the Bible.
Now behold, one came and said to Him, 'Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life'?. So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments'. [Matthew 19:16-17]
According to the above quote from the Bible,
i.You are supposed to keep the commandments
ii.You are not supposed to call praise Jesus.
Do you keep the commandments? Are you circumsized?
You have been praising Jesus over and over again without any backup. For obvious reasons, you failed the test and you were the most vulnerable one to this test.
5. You said in [Mark 16], Jesus is telling the good news of his death and resurrection, right? OK, let's analyze the following verses:
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless not as I will but as thou will [Matthew 26:39]
Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" [Matthew 27:46]
If Jesus considered getting crucified on the cross as good news, then why did Jesus question his decision to allow himself to be nailed to the Cross?
Do you think that Jesus was talking to himself? If not then who is Jesus praying to? Was God praying to God? If so then why
God has never been recorded in Old Testament as praying to himself? Why is it not recorded in the Bible that Jesus ever said "I am God"?
With that, your next (false) claim that I quoted the verse out of context is very well refuted. Please Robert, stop playing games, let's find the truth.
6. You said you can give me wonderful biographies of missionaries who performed miracles in the name of Jesus right? Let's look at the following verses:
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness[Matthew 7:21-23]
Did you see what Jesus said to those "missionaries" you are taking about?
Robert, don't be among those who will say on the Judgment day:
And those who disbelieve will say: "Our Lord! Show us those among jinns and men who led us astray, we shall crush them under our feet, so that they become the lowest." Quran[41:29]
I am requesting you one final time to start analyzing and pray God to help.
- Wed 28 Oct, 2009 4:58 am
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Lol brother Zack
You made my day; you are doing great mate
Take care
- Tue 03 Nov, 2009 3:40 am
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That Christian replied back saying he will answer my questions if I am interested in a personal discussion. Do you see his trick? Why not discuss publicly on the blog? No Christian(who says Jesus is God) can answer the above questions logically.
I also asked to show me a verse where Jesus clearly said he is God or where he said worship me. I told him that the verse should be unequivocal(unambiguous). Can you guys guess what he said? He asked me to show him one verse in the Quran where Allah says "Anna Tawhid".
A Muslim brother jumped into the discussion saying it would be a grammatical blunder to say "Anna Tawhid" and he quoted the verse in chapter 112 Qul hu Wallahu Ahad to show where the oneness of Allah is mentioned. Then the Christian replied back saying it is also a grammatical mistake for some to say "I am God". How stupid can someone be
Brother Ahmed, I don't know Arabic much so can you please confirm that it is indeed a blunder to say "Anna Tawhid".
- Tue 03 Nov, 2009 4:20 am
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Salam brother Zack
He is indeed confused, there is no such thing in Arabic that is stated, Anna Tawhid, it makes no sense whatsoever
Allah Wahid
i.e.
Allah is One
Take care mate
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:31 am
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And the debate continued but I forgot to copy and paste the arguments here. anyway below is what the Christian replied.
Christian Missionary's reply
zack,
The more you try to prove Islam, the more you unwittingly prove the truth of Jesus' incarnation, cruicifixion, and resurrection. While I don't think you are interesting in knowing the truth, there may be others here who do. So for them, I will answer one of your points as an illustration. If you want the others answered, we can set up a time to chat.
Let?????????????????????¢??s read these verses from Matthew 7 carefully:
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.?????????????????????¢?? 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Your attitude is that Christians will approach Jesus for intercession, at which point He will tell the Christian to ?????????????????????¢??depart from Him.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? You point out that the people being rejected are those who did things ?????????????????????¢??in the name of Jesus,?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? i.e. Christians.
Let's ask ourselves what ?????????????????????¢??not everyone?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? means. Does it mean ?????????????????????¢??most?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, ?????????????????????¢??some?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, ?????????????????????¢??few?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, or ?????????????????????¢??none?????????????????????¢??????????????????????? In the most general sense, ?????????????????????¢??Not everyone?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? means ?????????????????????¢??not everyone.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? Therefore, by definition, some who do call Jesus "Lord" will enter. Yet Islamic theology teaches that that NO ONE who calls Jesus Lord will enter, but here Jesus clearly indicates some, if not most, will. So zack, the question you must now answer for yourself is ?????????????????????¢??Why are some who call Jesus Lord saved??????????????????????¢??????????????????????
Moreover, here Jesus says, ?????????????????????¢??I never knew you.?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? What does it mean for Jesus to know us? How could He know us if He is dead? Apparently, this passage implies that He isn't dead, and He does know some people personally. Therefore, Jesus must still be alive and active in our lives! Then He says, "depart from ME", why didn't He say "depart from Allah"? Why instead does the departure happen away from Himself? Of course, the answer is because Jesus is God, and making us depart from Him is the punishment for not knowing Him, i.e., having that personal relationship. All these questions are ones you will be required to answer some day when you stand before your maker.
And just so you know, Jesus did claim to be God over 50 times. Some are direct, others less so. Again, we can discuss these personally if you so desire.
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:32 am
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zack's reply
Robert,
I knew you will back out, obviously, my comment/questions left your head spinning.
Why personally Robert? Why not here publicly? Are you afraid?
Regarding [Matthew 7:21-23], I never said that the verse is pointing out to every Christian, spend some time to read my comment. I said, it perfectly suits those missionaries you were talking about. I can prove it, if you can bring those missionaries here on this blog. Jesus here is referring to people like you Robert, who are deluded.
You said Jesus claim to be God and there is a direct reference, right?
Here is a challenge Robert: Show me one unequivocal statement where Jesus said "I am God" or where he said "Worship me". Will you?
Tip: If you have a dictionary, go find out what unequivocal means before you reply.
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:34 am
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Christian Missionary's reply
zack,
We have again arrived at the same place you and I always do. You have tried to prove Christianity false by quoting some verse, in this case Matthew 7:21-25. Instead, it shows that some people who call Jesus "Lord" will be saved, thus directly condradicting the Qur'an. It says that Jesus Himself is the judge, again contradicting the Qur'an. You try to defend Islam and instead prove it wrong!
You ask me to show you were Jesus says uniquivocally "I am God". What a great question. I will show you where, but first, you show me where in the Qur'an Allah says "anna tawhid".
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:39 am
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Another Muslim brother's reply
Robert define me what "anna tawhid" mean to you then I will give you the answer because what you say doesn't make any sense in Arabic and I already know that you are no expert or even close to the knowledge of Arabic.
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:41 am
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Christian Missionary's reply
So I understand what you mean completely that it would be grammatically inaccurate for the Qur'an to say "ana tahwid" or "ana wahid", just as it would be grammatically inaccurate for Jesus to say "I am God."
- Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:41 am
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