I need some guidance here regarding 4:102, regarding praying(salat) for others
M.Ahmed&Samira
4:102 And if you were in them, so you started for them the prayer, so a group from them should stand with you, and they should take their weapons/arms, so if they prostrated, so they be from behind you, and another group should come (that) they did not pray, so they pray (E) with you, and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms; those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your belongings/effects/goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, that God prepared to the disbelievers a degrading/humiliating torture.
4:102 starts with
wa iza - And if
kunta - you(sing) were
fihim - in them
fa 'aqamta - so perform
la hum - for/to them
as-salata -the prayer
.
.
.
Therefore the question is, is it posible for someone to perform the salat for somebody else, because as far as im aware, salat in the Quran is an personal connection to God.
really hope that forum members could iron out the ambiguities.
salam
Posted:
Sat 02 Dec, 2006 2:23 pm
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Since your mentioning about As salat and particular in verse 4:102, let us first read whats verse 4:101
004.101
YUSUFALI: When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
PICKTHAL: And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
SHAKIR: And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
Now, let me get the context for this particular verse to be revealed it very clear that at this time the Muslims, were moving out of Makkah or more conclusive Migrating.
Other assumption is, the Muslims were being prosecuted and safety and since Allaah is Al Alim, in his infinite mercy for the believers, in teh Noble Quran its mentioned reduce your prayers, if you travel for our own safety.
In the end Allaah, clearly mentions unbelievers are our open enemy.
I hope you are with me, let us look into the verse you have requested, I confess in advance, that I know little Arabic or what they Tifham Arabi showya showya well just joking. Well in verses, 102 and 103 Allaah is making the Muslims realise the importance of As salat
4:102
SHAKIR: And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
Now this prayers is definitely different from, what has been taught by the Prophet let me put in this verse for reference
002.239
YUSUFALI: If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
Now all these verses mentioned, define Allaah's mercy upon us, I dont wont to delve in too much wiht the Hadith in relation to it but the reference is Sahih Bukhari Vol 5, Hadith no. 451.
Now the explanation,
Quote:
And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them
,
Now I understand, you are confused the observation is did Prophet, pray for the believers in War or did the Prophet lead the Prayer, once you agree with the latter the Problem is solved. Well, most of the Hadith in relation to this verse are conclusive that Prophet led the Prayer, and thats, what it means Keep up the Prayers with them.Now the Fear Prayer is different, to the normal prayers as referred above
Quote:
let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
Since the rest of the verse is self explanatory, I will only touch upon first two lines
During the time of warfare, it simple as armed is mentioned Prophets leads the Prayers, let me suppose in two lines and assuming only 2 rakah of Salah as it is during the time of Warfare.
The first line performs only 1 rakah out of the 2 rakah, bows and Prostrates behind the Prophet, once this is established Prophet still continues with the second rakah and the the second line comes and finished with its Prayers and the first line takes position in the rear by that time. But the Prophet complets his 2 rakah, and rest of believers complete there prayers but only wiht 1 rakah. But remember this exemption is only during if you satisfy Surah 4:101 and 102 and Surah 2:239 as mentioned above.
Now, Allaah Glorified be him, is defined in the next verse the Importance of As salat,
4:103
SHAKIR: Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.
Now, as you mentioned that Salah is only to Allaah and individual, and the above verse defines all of it. Some of the assumptions i make here,
1) Salah is been ordained and its worship requires nothing from your side for eg Zakah, Salah and believing in Allaah required nothing almost zero.
2) Salah is so important as mentioned in the Verse above pray in any position you are. Suppose a sick person, handicapped is stil not exempted from Salah as Allaah is clearly mentioned in the verses above.
Now if Allaah Merciful he is, is defined in the Quran itself Prayer is not exempted to any individual let him be sick or handicapped.
Jazak Allaah.
Posted:
Sat 02 Dec, 2006 5:46 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: Re: Praying for someone else.
loli wrote:
Salamun Aalaikum brothers and sisters,
Welcome to FI brother
loli wrote:
I need some guidance here regarding 4:102, regarding praying(salat) for others
The guidance is from Allah mate, we all need it indeed
loli wrote:
M.Ahmed&Samira
4:102 And if you were in them, so you started for them the prayer, so a group from them should stand with you, and they should take their weapons/arms, so if they prostrated, so they be from behind you, and another group should come (that) they did not pray, so they pray (E) with you, and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms; those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your belongings/effects/goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, that God prepared to the disbelievers a degrading/humiliating torture.
I believe SOA provided good info to ponder upos this verse, I would like to add my 2c because a few month back when I was in egypt attending my father funeral, my brother ask one of the shikhs if he can do Salat to my father for the days he missed out, and sure the answer was onvious, OF COURSE NOT, it makes sense indeed, because if we are allowed to do that then this will render the salat to be physical only defying the main objective which is spiritually
which means in the case of, the verse is an advice to Mohammad from Allah, however the verse also apply to any muslim religious leader who will lead a group of believers in prayer while they are surrouinded by hostile enviroment
loli wrote:
kunta - you(sing) were
verb to be, but it does not mean past indeed, it actually means future, i.e. YOU WILL BE,
Wa Iza Kunt, means IF YOU WILL BE
loli wrote:
fihim - in them
yep, with those who will be lead in prayer
loli wrote:
fa 'aqamta - so perform
Te prophet or the religious leader will call (for the prayer)
the Fa here means futurtristic event, i.e. : WILL CALL
loli wrote:
la hum - for/to them
for those group of believers who will be lead in prayers by the prophet or the religious leader
loli wrote:
as-salata -the prayer
that is what will be called by the prophet or the religious leader
loli wrote:
Therefore the question is, is it posible for someone to perform the salat for somebody else,
No way mate
loli wrote:
because as far as im aware, salat in the Quran is an personal connection to God.
exactly bro and because it is based on humbling the self, it can't be done for others
loli wrote:
really hope that forum members could iron out the ambiguities.
Since your mentioning about As salat and particular in verse 4:102, let us first read whats verse 4:101
During the time of warfare, it simple as armed is mentioned Prophets leads the Prayers, let me suppose in two lines and assuming only 2 rakah of Salah as it is during the time of Warfare.
The first line performs only 1 rakah out of the 2 rakah, bows and Prostrates behind the Prophet, once this is established Prophet still continues with the second rakah and the the second line comes and finished with its Prayers and the first line takes position in the rear by that time. But the Prophet complets his 2 rakah, and rest of believers complete there prayers but only wiht 1 rakah. But remember this exemption is only during if you satisfy Surah 4:101 and 102 and Surah 2:239 as mentioned above.
Few weeks ago, i concur with this understanding, however after reading and asking some others about it, i believe i have to change my understanding.
This is my reasoning
4:102 starts with
wa iza - And if
kunta - you(sing) were
fihim - in them
fa 'aqamta - so perform
la hum - for/to them
as-salata -the prayer
.
.
.
fa-itha - So when
sajadoo - Have prostrated
falyakoonoo - so they be
min wara-ikum - from behind ye
.
.
.
Couple of weeks back i understand that "falyakoonoo min wara-ikum" is when the 1st group(line) have prostrated, they should be behind the leadear(singular)
However looking back at the verse, that is not posible because "min wara-ikum" means from behind ye(plural)
here is the summary of my understanding
Previous understanding
4:102 .....so when have prostrated, so they(1st group/line) be from behind you(leader).....
current understanding
4:102 .....so when have prostrated, so they(ppl who have prostrated from 1st group) be from behind ye(ppl who havent prostrated from 1st group)....
kum in the verse cant be reffering to only the leader because it is plural.
Please note the verse dosent talk about the ppl who havent "yussalli" only after this particular sentance " falyakoonoo min wara-ikum"
Therefore the impact here is that the leader and the followers(even among the followers themselves) is not prostrating at the same time. Which is contradicting to present day Hadith and your current understanding.
Hope that you could confirm my understanding on this.
salam
loli
Posted:
Sun 03 Dec, 2006 1:00 pm
loli Pawn
Status:
Faith: Islam Gender:
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Posts: 10
Post subject:
Peace Ahmad,
Thanx for your reply and your corrections, hope that you can correct me if im wrong as arabic grammer is not m strong point.
However i notice this
Quote:
Quote:
loli wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¹ Select ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????º
fa 'aqamta - so perform
Te prophet or the religious leader will call (for the prayer)
the Fa here means futurtristic event, i.e. : WILL CALL
i understand "Fa" as a conjugate with proximate sequence power to the antecedent event.
your translation seems solve the issue that we cant pray for others.
fa'aqamta - will call
so the complete translation will be
wa iza - And if
kunta - you(sing) will be
fihim - in them
fa 'aqamta - will call
la hum - for/to them
as-salata -the prayer
So the leader will only call the followers to their prayer, but will not perform the prayer for them,
However how will this word(aqamta) syncronize with other ayats which is related to salat.
example 2:177,7:170, 42:38
or
the ones that is not related to salat
example 5:12, 18:77
salam Ahmad
Posted:
Sun 03 Dec, 2006 1:49 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
loli wrote:
Peace Ahmad,
Peace mate
loli wrote:
Thanx for your reply and your corrections, hope that you can correct me if im wrong as arabic grammer is not m strong point.
No worries bro, any time
loli wrote:
However i notice this
i understand "Fa" as a conjugate with proximate sequence power to the antecedent event.
loli wrote:
your translation seems solve the issue that we cant pray for others.
Actually bro, it seems I was a bit confused regarding your question, now everything is clear for me, so you are saying that the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Aqim????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? when it is used it means to perform salat, so in the verse in question 4:102, you though that ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Aqim Lahum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means pray for them
Actually mate, if the word is used on its own like ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Aqim Al Salat????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? then it means to peform Salat however if the word is used with the words ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Lahum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? then it means the following:
You call for the prayer for the people around you informing them that the Salat in group is about to start, then the person who called for the salat ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Aqim Lahum Al Salat????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? can pray with them or not, it is just up to him
i..e. the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Lahum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? will totally change the meaning of the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Aqim????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this is how Arabic woks mate
for example
Idrab means to beat
But Idrab FI al Ard, means to travel in the land
And as you can see the FI has changed the meaning of the word Adrab, exactly as Lahum changed the meaning of Aqim
loli wrote:
So the leader will only call the followers to their prayer, but will not perform the prayer for them,
It is up to him to pray with them or with another group, all he did was calling the salat FOR THEM informing all in the vicinity that a group prayer is about to start
loli wrote:
However how will this word(aqamta) syncronize with other ayats which is related to salat. example 2:177,7:170, 42:38
or the ones that is not related to salat example 5:12, 18:77
I believe I explained this already so when Allah tells us to Aqim Al Salat, it means the individual perform Salat, but if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m told to Aqim Al Salat to a group of people then I only called them to perform Salat and it is up to me to do it with them or not, however and logically speaking the one who called for the group salat should perform the salat with them unless there is a good cause not to like the hostility cause mentioned in 4:102
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Myr wrote:
Salam Ahmed, all,
Salam sister Myr
Myr wrote:
I am not that convinced about your shift in the meaning of "aqim"
I'm sorry sister, I didn't shift anything
The word alone on its own means to pray but if we have the word "Li" and in this case ity is "Lahum" it means to call them to pray, indeed in Muslims contries we call this Igamatu Al Salat i.e. the Satal is about to start, that is differnt to the Azan, the Azan call is called "Nida" as an action of calling others for the prayer, the Iqamiatu Al salat is calling those who came after hearing the Azan to inform them that the Salat is about to start so they stand up and pray together
if the word "Lahum" is not there then I will agree with you, but Lahum clearly means to call them for the Salat that is about to start, "Iqamatu Al Salat"
now the person who called for the Iqimah can pray with this group or not
there is no inclination in the verse that the prophet must lead them in prayers or an order that he lead them in prayer
Myr wrote:
and I am inclined to accept loli's understanding but I have to admit that my understanding is based on trying to explain the Quran from within the Quran while I strongly believe that each word in the Quran conveys a specific meaning even if many words have been translated having similar meanings (for me, there still must be a slight differnce in their meaning).
that is what i do too, I only use the Quran and the words Lahum made me sure that the words before it means to call the for the start of the salat in group
Myr wrote:
In verse 62:9, we can clearly see the expression used to call people to perform the salat so "aqim lahum" can not mean to "call",
actually it CAN mean to call the start of the salat not calling the people and in this case it is only the self, therefore there is no need to inform others that the Salat is about to start and the call is fro the self to start praying
Myr wrote:
furthermore verse 62:11 emphasizes "qa2'eman" (standing) from "aqim".
I think you may understood it that I meant calling them?
not really if this is the case, it is calling the Salat not the ones who will perform it, this call means that the Satat is about to start
Myr wrote:
My understanding of "aqim lahum" would be that the prophet "stood for them", it's like me being in a hospital bed and you come to visit me so I will tell you do for me the "physical aspect of the salat" while I follow you from my bed praying with my mind so I would "imagine" prostrating at the time you prostrate and standing at the time you stand up and so on
Not sure sister, I based my understanding on the word Lahum and the comonly known facts in the Muslims countries regarding Iqamatu Al Salat which means calling the prayer to start not calling the people, because the people were already called for the salat via the Azan
Myr wrote:
....I am not sure if you see my point.
I do see it and I believe you have a point but only of the words lahum is not there
Myr wrote:
It is worth noting that it is in these verses that we can see the importance of the mind state and how it has to synchronize with the body movements/state, however most of people would do the opposite:-) the body follows but the mind does not:-).
Sure, I also have to stress that the verse in question does not only apply to the prophet during his time, rather it applies to anyone who will call the start of the prayer
Myr wrote:
Just sharing my understanding and God the All-Mighty knows best.
Peace. Myr.
Ahmed..
I cant seem to find a dictionary to support your understanding. could you point me to a dictionary that says "aqamta" = call ?
the nearest i can get is "to set up", which i dont see it as the same as "call" for prayers.
Hope that you can clarify this.
salam
Posted:
Wed 13 Dec, 2006 11:30 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
loli wrote:
Salam Ahmed, Myr,
Thank you for your reply.
Ahmed..
I cant seem to find a dictionary to support your understanding. could you point me to a dictionary that says "aqamta" = call ?
the nearest i can get is "to set up", which i dont see it as the same as "call" for prayers.
Hope that you can clarify this.
salam
Thanks bro
indeed you are more right than me, it actually means to setup, i used the wrong word but that is what i mean
i.e. the salat is about to be set in group
sort of calling the salat setup
the reason I said call is simple there is smaller and quicker version of Azan that is called "Iqamatu Al Salat" where someone of the group recite it and all the group will stand up to set themselves in rows
However..do you believe that the "iqamatu Al-salat" is done as the sunnis do it...the co-leader just recite some memorized wordings.
If we translate "aqamatu" = "to set up", i would say that the one who calls is the one who coordinates which person to should perform Salat first and who to perform Salat after.
Any commments?
Posted:
Fri 15 Dec, 2006 12:21 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Re:
loli wrote:
Salam Ahmed,
Thanx for verifying this..
However..do you believe that the "iqamatu Al-salat" is done as the sunnis do it...the co-leader just recite some memorized wordings.
Salam bro
I really have no problem with the way the sunni do it, it does not contradict the Quran in any way
loli wrote:
If we translate "aqamatu" = "to set up",
I wouold say it is better translated as the call to set up
loli wrote:
i would say that the one who calls is the one who coordinates which person to should perform Salat first and who to perform Salat after.
Any commments?
It makes no difference to me really if the caller is the cooridinator or not, however coordination is always welcomed
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