Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: My dabete on www.islammessage.com
Salam
About over a year ago I was a member on a clear cut sunni web site www.islammessage.com, i got involved in a debated with a sunni woman who happened to be an admin on that web site, her nick name is Muslimah
when I confronted her with the flaw in most Muslims regarding their shirk, she defended that shirk really hard, however she never presented a valid Quran argument, most of what she presented was hadith based, all these lengthy debates happened through PMs on her web site, after a while I had enough and left, a few weeks back I started recieveing invitations to invistagte some of the threads in there, so I decided to reply to one of them which was about polygamy in Islam, and surely preseneted compelling evidences proving how most Muslims are flawed regarding this serious matter
I also told Muslimah that I'm about to post a very sensetive thread exposing Al Mushrikoon, she welcomed me and stated that her web site is a free speech web site
so I posted the article exposing Al Mushrikoon that I put together before (already posted on FI) on her web site, and urged them to refute it, I expressed to them that I only accept Quran arguments, a few days passed and never had a reply, I thought they might have banned me however I gave them the benefit of the doubt assuming that Muslimah was not lying when she stated to me that it is a free speech web site, a couple of days passed and I tried today to check my thread and guess what, they banned me
I never received a notice though, now I'm not upset that they banned me in fact this is great because now i know how strong my arguments are, indeed non so far managed to beat it alhamdullelah
here is what I decided to do, post all the debates between me and Muslimah that happened over a year ago, I kept all communication, and you will see for yourself how it is another case of an ignorant Muslim (Muslimah) who is committing shirk without even realizing it
Please bear with me until I get all these past communications ready to be posted in here
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sun 22 Apr, 2007 11:59 am; edited 3 times in total
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 7:36 pm
Al-Quraishi Site Admin
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
It makes me wonder how some people can live with themselves doing things like this, if someone has clearly shown them (with proofs) the wrong beliefs and/or practises that they hold, it's in their best interests to accept the truth. I've got this from Christians a few times exposing the baselessness and/or pagan foundations of their beliefs, some of them even accepted the argument but still went on doing as they were! Such are the rejecters...
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 7:52 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Zayd wrote:
It makes me wonder how some people can live with themselves doing things like this, if someone has clearly shown them (with proofs) the wrong beliefs and/or practises that they hold, it's in their best interests to accept the truth. I've got this from Christians a few times exposing the baselessness and/or pagan foundations of their beliefs, some of them even accepted the argument but still went on doing as they were! Such are the rejecters...
Yeh bro
it is very disappointing, I felt if I'm wrong then there must be someone who can refute my arguments using the Quran, I thought that web site has some knowledgable Muslims who can take on this tough task, however they chose to act cowardly, and guess what their action is against the spirit of Islam, when I post everything in here the matter should be clear for all
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu 12 Apr, 2007 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 8:10 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam all
Let me get this going because it is going to take me a long time, I have to add my explanation as she was talking to me in Arabic, apparently she is Egyptian
Quote:
بسم الله
الحمد لله حمدا كثير مباركا فيه يكافئ نعمه وآلائه ونصلى ونسلم على أفضل مبعوث للعالمين نبينا ومعلمنا وقائدنا محمد بن عبد الله وعلى آله وأصحابه أجمعين
السلام عليكم الأخ الكريم
Explanation: The above is sort of a greeting to me but was preceded by in the name of Allah then a great deal of praise to Mohammad, his family and his friends
Ahmed says:
Alhamdulellah sister, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure Allah will appreciate your Doah, but I believe He would have appreciated it more if you also included Ibrahim, Yusuf , Noah and many other prophets (pbut all), but it seems they missed out while the sahaba didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, very strange really, because Mohammad (pbuh) was following ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Melatu Ibrahim????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and Ibrahim (pbuh) was the prophet who called us Muslims
Salamo Alaiki blessed sister, and I wish you all the barakah from Allah Almighty (swt) in the Eid Inshaallah, and I thank you heaps for taking the time to respond to my questions
Quote:
إن شاء الله أبدأ بنقطة فرض الصلاة خلال رحلة الإسراء ونصيحة موسى بالعودة إلى ربه وطلب التخفيف:
Explanation: The sunni sister wants to start with my concern regarding the hadith of 50 salat going down to 5 when it is alleged that Moses kept advising Mohammad to go back to Allah to seek less prayers per day until they reached 5 per day, she also claimed that this hadith is the one that made salat compulsory on the the believers
Ahmed says:
Salat must be known as a law years before Mohammad:
The Children of Israel performed salat before Islam:
وَأَقِيمُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتُواْ الزَّكَاةَ وَارْكَعُواْ مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
(The Quran ; 2:43)
And again for the children of Israel, the same teachings if Islam including salat:
وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ لاَ تَعْبُدُونَ إِلاَّ اللّهَ وَبِالْوَالِدَيْنِ إِحْسَاناً وَذِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَقُولُواْ لِلنَّاسِ حُسْناً وَأَقِيمُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتُواْ الزَّكَاةَ ثُمَّ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً مِّنكُمْ وَأَنتُم مِّعْرِضُونَ (83)
Jesus was ordered to do salat:
وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا (31)
(The Quran ; 19:31)
Luqmaan advised his son to perform salat:
يَا بُنَيَّ أَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ وَأْمُرْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَانْهَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَاصْبِرْ عَلَى مَا أَصَابَكَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ مِنْ عَزْمِ الْأُمُورِ (17)
(The Quran ; 31:17)
Even everything in the heaven and earth know their salat:
أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالطَّيْرُ صَافَّاتٍ كُلٌّ قَدْ عَلِمَ صَلَاتَهُ وَتَسْبِيحَهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ (41)
(The Quran ; 24:41)
Therefore it is impossible to believe that the salat made compulsory on humans on the Israa trip, I only believe that it was made 5 on the Isra trip.
Quote:
بالطبع الموقف لا يعنى بأى حال من الأحوال إحاطة موسى بما لا يعلمه الله والعياذ بالله. الله سبحانه وتعالى كان يعلم مسبقا بعلمه المحيط وهو العليم المحيط بأن الرسول سيقابل موسى عليهما الصلاة والسلام وأن موسى سيظل ينصحه بذلك. أما لماذا؟ الله سبحانه وتعالى إذا لم يفعل ذلك يكون:
اسم العليم المحيط قد تعطل
اسم الرحمن قد تعطل
Explanation: She is denying that this corrupt hadith clearly indicates that Moses knew what Allah and Mohammad didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t know, she ended her comment sort of saying that Allah knew that Moses will advice Mohammad to ask Allah to decrease the salat, she is using the argument that Allah must have known because He is the all knowing.
Ahmed says:
Of course sister Allah (swt) is the Mighty Aleem, but again sister I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see Allah (swt) as described by this hadith that He is Aleem, because He should have known that humans can not handle 50 Salats, what is the wisdom of having Moses (pbuh) in the story anyway?, not because he was the first to meet Mohammed in his way back for sure? Why Allah (swt) didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t tell Mohammad (pbuh) it was 50 but I will ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Okhafif????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (make it easier) it to 5 because I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m the Rahman?, why Moses (pbuh) managed to be more merciful with us than Mohammad (pbuh) while Allah (swt) said about Mohammad (pbuh) that He sent him ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Rahmattan Lel Alameen????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????? , but if the story is true then we will have a problem in hand:
لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَى فِي الْحَياةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (64)
(The Quran 10:46)
-> Clear from the above sister that Allah (swt) does not change His words neither His mind for sure, this is an argument I hold against the Bible which shows Allah Almighty (swt) as one Who does not know what He is doing and sometimes He changes His words and mind
The second example I would like to show you sister is this 3 verses:
أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلاً وَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ (114)
وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقًا وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ (115)
وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ (116)
(The Quran 6:114-116)
-> The verse that is relevant to our discussion is 6:115, which again shows clearly that Allah (swt) does not change His words, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure the verse is not about the Quran alone as His unchanged words, rather all His words, or what do you think sister?
-> Sorry sister I could not leave the other 2 verses I posted without showing them to you as I appreciate your opinion honestly and Allah (swt) knows that, in verse 6:114 we have too important pieces of information:
1) ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????shall I take a judge other than Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure most Muslims resort to Ahkam coming from other people and not from Allah (swt).
2) Those Ahkam ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Laws????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? are detailed by Allah (swt) in His Quran ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلاً????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Shall I seek a judge other than Allah and He sent a detailed book to you????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
-> The second verse 6:116 is very impressive sister, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????and if you obey most on earth, they would lead you astray, they only follow nothing ut conjectures and they must shut up????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????would you classify any hadith as ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Zann????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????conjecture????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? or because it is mutawattir it should be faultless as the words of Allah (swt)? ,i.e. it should be held as laws as the words of Allah (swt)?, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the one whom I should not seek a judge but Him
The last example I would like to show you sister and I have to thank you for your patience is the following verse:
وَاتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا (27)
(The Quran 18:27)
-> Same here dear sister, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????La Mubbaddel Le Kalimatuh????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????there is no change to His words????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? but can you see that the prophet was ordered to ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? وَاتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????recite what your God has revealed to you????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? The prophet (pbuh) mission was actually told by Allah (swt) in the Quran ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Balagh????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, can you please sister tell me what your thought about this verse in the Quran:
وَإِن مَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْكَ الْبَلاَغُ وَعَلَيْنَا الْحِسَابُ (40)
(The Quran 13:40)
To be continued????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦ _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 9:30 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Quote:
يمعنى آخر وأبسط الله سبحانه وتعالى تجلى على خلقه باسم الرحمن الذى يتفاعل مع الخلق من جانب وتجلى
أيضا على خلقه باسمه الكريم من جانب آخر عندما لم يكتفى بالتخفيف فى الكم ولكم عندما لم يخفف فى الجزاء. فقد أخبر الله رسوله الكريم أن العدد سيقل إلى 5 فقط ولكن الحسنة بعشرة أمثالها وبالتالى يظل الثواب بقدر الخمسين
Explanation: what she is saying above is sort of that because Allah posses the names Rahman and Karim He decreased the salat on us while He did not decrease the reward, i.e. the reward of 5 salats will be multiplied by 10 which will equal 50 salats, i.e. by us doing the 5 salats we will still be rewarded as we have done 50 salats
Clearly the above is a clear cut lie against Allah, because Allah never told us as such regarding the 5 salats, here is what I told sister Muslimah:
Ahmed says:
Ok sister, the 10 times as much reward is not the upper limit by Allah (swt), we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t need this hadith to tell us that and surely I believe the people who fabricated it worked out the numbers really good, but surely they forgot that this 10 times as much was never mentioned in the Quran, what was mentioned was 700 as much and even more than that:
The parable of those who spend their property in the way of Allah is as the parable of a grain growing seven ears (with) a hundred grains in every ear; and Allah multiplies for whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing
مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ يُنفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ حَبَّةٍ أَنبَتَتْ سَبْعَ سَنَابِلَ فِي كُلِّ سُنبُلَةٍ مِّئَةُ حَبَّةٍ وَاللّهُ يُضَاعِفُ لِمَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ (261)
[The Quran ; 2:261]
-> Also dear sister, making a Salat is not a ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Hasanah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, only the good deeds are the ones that the hadith of ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Hasanah bi Asharato Amathloha????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? will apply, like feeding a poor human, or giving a helping hand, there are millions of examples to Hassanat, but I believer Salat is not one of them as Allah (swt) does not need our salat neither our slavery nor our worshipping to Him, so Salat can not be considered a Hasanah to others, rather a Hasanah to the self, this must lead to that the explanation of the 5 Salat will be treated as 50 is certainly flawed, the major flaw in it is why 50?, why not 100?, Allah (swt) tressures will never go empty, but can you see how it was not left at 700 in the above verse 2:261 and Allah (swt) ended it with : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????وَاللّهُ يُضَاعِفُ لِمَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and Allah multiplies for whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? PERFECT WORDS BY ALLAH THE ALMIGHTY (SWT), look at the following mighty words dear sister:
Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is Allah that giveth (you) Want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.
مَّن ذَا الَّذِي يُقْرِضُ اللّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا فَيُضَاعِفَهُ لَهُ أَضْعَافًا كَثِيرَةً وَاللّهُ يَقْبِضُ وَيَبْسُطُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ (245)
[The Quran ; 2:245]
-> Again sister, no upper limit to how far Allah (swt) can ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Yoda????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ef????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Multiply????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Al Hassanat, and surely the salat can not be hassanah, rather an order that must be done
Dear sister sorry for the lengthy reply but I like this next example actually:
Surely Allah does not do injustice to the weight of an atom, and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.
إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَظْلِمُ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا وَيُؤْتِ مِن لَّدُنْهُ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا (40)
[The Quran ; 4:40]
-> Again, no upper limit to how much Allah (swt) can ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Yoda????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ef????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Multiply????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? the Hassanat, but can you see sister how the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Moda????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢afa????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Mutiplication????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????was conditioned if it is only hassanah? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and if it is a good deed He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and because the salat can not be hassnah IT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED, I.e this hadith is a lie. or at least part of it is a clear cut lie.
To be continued????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦. _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 9:49 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
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Quote:
ومنا هنا نرى عظمة الخالق الذى يقول لنا أنظروا كيف كنت أستطيع أن أحملكم هذا العبئ وأنا الله الخالق ولكنى أعلم أنه لن تتمكنوا من الوفاء بهذا مع العلم بأن الفائدة فى الصلاة لا تعود إلا على المصلى لا على الله ولكن سأخفف عنكم حتى تتمكنوا من أدائها مع الاحتفاظ بكم الثواب حتى تعلموا أنى أنا الغنى وبذلك يكون الله سبحانه وتعالى قد تجلى علينا بأسمائه الرحمن العليم الغنى الكريم ألاترى الحكمة يا أخى؟
Explanation: What she is saying is like this, the hadith is showing us the greatness of the Creator who is telling us ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????look I can force 50 salats on you as I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m the creator but I know that you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t fulfil it, so I will decrease it so you can fulfil it while you will keep the original reward before it was decreased????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, then she asked me can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you see the hikmah in that brother?
Ahmed says:
Obvioulsy the aove is total non sense, firstly she lied by claiming that Allah said the above while He never said as such, in fact this corrupt hadith clearly indicated that Allah failed to know (Allah forbids) at least 5 times, He would have said this from the start to Mohammad, I still have to ask what Moses has to do with it?
Now here is what I said to here:
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry sister, this violates the followings:
Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.
لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ رَبَّنَا لاَ تُؤَاخِذْنَا إِن نَّسِينَا أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَا إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَآ أَنتَ مَوْلاَنَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ (286)
[The Quran ; 2:286]
-> Clearly sister that Allah (swt) should have known that we can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Nowafi????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? the 50 Salats, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, in addition to that, I have shown you enough evidence that Allah (swt) does not change his words, and as you stated ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? مع العلم بأن الفائدة فى الصلاة لا تعود إلا على المصلى????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. Salat is not a hassanah and can not be ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????multiplied by 10????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, also the multiplication of the hassanat should not be limited to max of 10 as there is no such thing in the Quran rather 700 and even far more than that, there is no limit to how much Allah (swt) can ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Yoda????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ef????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Multiply????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? the hassanat.
-> For your question regarding me seeing the hikmah in what you said, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry sister I can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see the hikmah in there, rather a concrete evidence that this hadith about the Salat from 50 to 5 is fabricated by the Jews that is why they put Moses (pbuh) in there as if he is the one that should take credit in advising Mohammed that we can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t fulfil it and yet it seems Allah (swt) did not know that and ordered 50 Salat while ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
To be continued????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦.. _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 10:03 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Quote:
أما عن موضوع تبجيل الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام فالأمر ينقسم إلى كذا شق: واعتقد هذا ما فهمته من النقطة التى أثرتها باللغة الانجليزية لأن الكلمة التى استخدمتها غير واضحة فقد استخدمت praiseونحن أساسا يجب ألا praise except Allah
ولكن إذا كنت تعنى كما فهمت تبجيل واحترام فعلى قدر فهمى:
أولا هناك أمر مباشر من الله سبحانه وتعالى فى كتابه الكريم قائلا
Explanation: she moved now to tackle my argument of the excessive praise to prophet Mohammad, she is saying, by me using the word PRAISE it was wrong, because the praise should be only for Allah but if I meant RESPECT then that was an order from Allah
Ahmed says:
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry sister, you are right I meant ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? تبجيل واحترام????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????RESPECT????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, my lack of perfect English
Quote:
"إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتبعونى يحببكم الله"????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Explanation: The above is a verse from the Quran :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????If you love Allah the follow me????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, obviously she is using this verse as an order from Allah to Nubagil and Nahtarim Mohammad,
Actually I have to say that there is no English word but Praise that can mean Nubagil
Ahmed says:
This is a very good verse sister, thank you, can you see that the verse did not say ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????إن كنتم تحبون الله فاحبوني يحببكم الله????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????If you love Allah then love me????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? but only FOLLOW Mohammad (pbuh) if we love Allah (swt), i.e. if we follow the prophet then Allah (swt) will love us., it has nothing to do with loving Mohammad
Quote:
إذن اتباع الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام يجلب لنا محبة الله سبحانه وتعالى ومن منا لا يرغب ولا يتوق إلى ذلك جعلنا الله جميعا ممن يحبهم الله سبحانه وتعالى. هذه واحدة
Explanation: She is saying, therefore following the prophet will earn us the love of Allah and this is the first point
(From a Quarn alone web site - Free-minds or submission)
Following Mohammad (pbuh) is one huge misconception in Islam:
Many people site the Quranic verses that command us to obey Allah (swt) and obey the prophet (pbuh), and say that obeying Allah (swt) and obeying the prophet (pbuh) are two different things - Obeying Allah (swt) is to obey the Quran and obeying the prophet (pbuh) is to obey the books of hadith. They point that if obeying the prophet (pbuh) was the same thing as obeying Allah's Quran, then Allah (swt) would have only said obey Allah (swt). These people say that Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s inclusion of obey the prophet (obuh) implies that the prophet is saying EXTRA things outside of the Quran that we must obey.
The thing that many proponents of hadith forget is that Allah (swt) does not leave it to speculation as to what the people are to obey. The verses do not end at obey Allah (swt) and obey the prophet (pbuh) , but they continue to include what the duty of the prophet (pbuh) is:
وَأَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُواْ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلاَغُ الْمُبِينُ (92)
-> The last verse is very important sister, can you see this part : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُم مَّا حُمِّلْتُمْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????????????
(From a Quran alone web site Free-minds or submission)
Now, if we look at these verses, we notice that Allah (swt) has clearly pointed out the duty of the prophet (pbuh), i.e. that he (pbuh) must DELIVER the clarity ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Balagh Al Mubeen????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????. We have seen that the clarity or the Message of the prophet is the Quran. Here we will look at another important term used in the Quran. This term is ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Balagha????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, meaning the reaching, or delivery of the message.
The word messenger is derived from the word message. A messenger delivers a message. To obey the messenger would consequently mean to obey the message he is delivering. The Messenger (pbuh) was teaching, preaching, explaining and living by the Quran.
We read in Deut. 18:18-19, that Mohammad (pbuh) shall only speak with what Allah (swt) command him, in fact the words/commands of the Quran were put into Mohammad????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s mouth despite he never knew how to read or write:
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen, and will put my words into his mouth; he shall tell them all that I command him. If any man will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name, I myself will make him answer for it." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)
Can you see dear sister how Deut. 18:19 passage states : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????If any man will not listen to my words????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????
how you see ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????My words????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? in the above passage sister?, is it Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s words (swt), or Mohammad????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s words (pbuh)?, it is obvious sister that it is Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s words (swt) and it is nothing but the preserved and complete Quran.
This was also confirmed by john:
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak; and he will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13)
The Quran tells us the Mohammed (pbuh) had only the Quran to deliver:
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48)
وَأَنِ احْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَن يَفْتِنُوكَ عَن بَعْضِ مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ إِلَيْكَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ أَن يُصِيبَهُم بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ (49)
أَفَحُكْمَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ يَبْغُونَ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللّهِ حُكْمًا لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ (50)
[The Quran ; 5:48-50]
-> Obvious from the above sister that Mohammad (pbuh) was ordered to only rule by the Quran, there is no mention to the so called hadith of the prophet (pbuh), in fact the prophet (pbuh) was warned NOT to utter anything but the Quran:
إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ (40)
وَمَا هُوَ بِقَوْلِ شَاعِرٍ قَلِيلًا مَا تُؤْمِنُونَ (41)
وَلَا بِقَوْلِ كَاهِنٍ قَلِيلًا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ (42)
تَنزِيلٌ مِّن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (43)
وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الْأَقَاوِيلِ (44)
لَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ (45)
ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ (46)
فَمَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ عَنْهُ حَاجِزِينَ (47)
وَإِنَّهُ لَتَذْكِرَةٌ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ (48)
How briefed, clear, strong, perfect, great and beautiful can the words be as seen from the above verses?
It is really strange that the upholders of hadith failed to uphold the Quran alone, but it is not strange for me to read ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????in the same sura no 17????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and not far from all these great and clear guidance ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????17:22-39????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? verse 17:46:
وَجَعَلْنَا عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ أَكِنَّةً أَن يَفْقَهُوهُ وَفِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرًا وَإِذَا ذَكَرْتَ رَبَّكَ فِي الْقُرْآنِ وَحْدَهُ وَلَّوْاْ عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمْ نُفُورًا (46)
[The Quran ; 17:46]
Really sister this sentence in the above verse stroke me hard: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَإِذَا ذَكَرْتَ رَبَّكَ فِي الْقُرْآنِ وَحْدَهُ وَلَّوْاْ عَلَى أَدْبَارِهِمْ نُفُورًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and when you mention your Lord alone in the Quran they turn their backs in aversion.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? what message you can understand from this verse sister?
Do the hadith upholders believe in the following verse?
وَمَا مِن دَآبَّةٍ فِي الأَرْضِ وَلاَ طَائِرٍ يَطِيرُ بِجَنَاحَيْهِ إِلاَّ أُمَمٌ أَمْثَالُكُم مَّا فَرَّطْنَا فِي الكِتَابِ مِن شَيْءٍ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّهِمْ يُحْشَرُونَ (38)
[The Quran ; 6:38]
Very clear sister, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? مَّا فَرَّطْنَا فِي الكِتَابِ مِن شَيْءٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? We have not neglected anything in the Book,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
(From the Quran alone web site ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢?? Free-minds or submission)
Some Muslims claim that the hadith is divine revelations. It seems they are not aware that it is important for a divine revelation to be preserved perfectly. Since the so called hadith of the prophet (pbuh) have been vastly corrupted, they can never meet the criterion of divine revelation:
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ (9)
[The Quran ; 15:9]
We can see that Allah (swt) told us He will preserve His Quran, but did He ever told us that He will preserve the prophet hadith (pbuh)?, NEVER EVER
The Quran is the only hadith that is not corrupt and can not be corrupt till the judgment day:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِالذِّكْرِ لَمَّا جَاءهُمْ وَإِنَّهُ لَكِتَابٌ عَزِيزٌ (41)
لَا يَأْتِيهِ الْبَاطِلُ مِن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِ تَنزِيلٌ مِّنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ (42)
[The Quran ; 41:41-42]
The prophet (pbuh) was not the only prophet sent to be obeyed; all the prophets shared this order by Allah for all humans to obey them:
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا (64)
[The Quran ; 4:64]
Obeying the prophet (pbuh) is absolute only as far as the Quranic revelations are concerned is to obey is to uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran. Obedience is strictly conditioned that the source is Allah (swt) through all His prophets, and not the prophets who are no more than human beings, subject to errors, consequently we were advised to obey the prophets ONLY if they are right, an example in the following verse:
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِذَا جَاءكَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتُ يُبَايِعْنَكَ عَلَى أَن لَّا يُشْرِكْنَ بِاللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَلَا يَسْرِقْنَ وَلَا يَزْنِينَ وَلَا يَقْتُلْنَ أَوْلَادَهُنَّ وَلَا يَأْتِينَ بِبُهْتَانٍ يَفْتَرِينَهُ بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِنَّ وَأَرْجُلِهِنَّ وَلَا يَعْصِينَكَ فِي مَعْرُوفٍ فَبَايِعْهُنَّ وَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُنَّ اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (12)
[The Quran ; 60:12]
This is very important to note sister: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَلَا يَعْصِينَكَ فِي مَعْرُوفٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and will not disobey you in what is good????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Another clear example is this next verse sister:
وَإِذْ تَقُولُ لِلَّذِي أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَأَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِ أَمْسِكْ عَلَيْكَ زَوْجَكَ وَاتَّقِ اللَّهَ وَتُخْفِي فِي نَفْسِكَ مَا اللَّهُ مُبْدِيهِ وَتَخْشَى النَّاسَ وَاللَّهُ أَحَقُّ أَن تَخْشَاهُ فَلَمَّا قَضَى زَيْدٌ مِّنْهَا وَطَرًا زَوَّجْنَاكَهَا لِكَيْ لَا يَك& _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 10:35 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Can any of the prophets personal words be like Allah (swt) words? Impossible sister:
قُل لَّوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِّكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَن تَنفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا (109)
قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَيَّ أَنَّمَا إِلَهُكُمْ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو لِقَاء رَبِّهِ فَلْيَعْمَلْ عَمَلًا صَالِحًا وَلَا يُشْرِكْ بِعِبَادَةِ رَبِّهِ أَحَدًا (110)
[The Quran ; 18:109-110]
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not surprised to read in verse 18:110 that Allah (swt) is telling the prophet (pbuh) to say that he is no more than a human like us, then at the end of the verse a warning against Shirk
And again the same was exactly repeated with different words that the prophet is no more than a human like us and the same warning of Shirk:
أما الثانية فقد أمرنا لله سبحانه وتعالى أمرا مباشر بالصلاة عليه قائلا " يا أيها الذين آمنوا صلوا عليه وسلموا تسليما" وجائت هذه الآية عقب قوله سبحانه وتعالى " إن الله وملائكته يصلون على النبى" وبالطبع صلاة الله سبحانه وتعالى على النبى غير صلاة الملائكة غير صلاتنا نحن. وفى موضع آخر "هو الذى يصلى عليكم وملائكته ليخركم من الظلمات إلى النور" وطبعا هنا أيضا صلاة الله سبحانه وتعالى وصلاة الملائكة أمرين مختلفين تماما ولكن نخلص من ذلك اننا بالطبع يجوز أن نقول صلى الله عليه وسلم على أى من الرسل ولكن أنظر أن الله سبحانه وتعالى لم يختص بالأمر المباشر إلى الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام وسيدنا ابراهيم أيضا بالمثل ولا عجب أن هذا ما نردده فى التشهد أنظر قول الله سبحانه وتعالى فى سورة هود 73 قَالُواْ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللّهِ رَحْمَتُ اللّهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ
أنظر إلى الصيغة فى قوله إنه حميد مجيد هذا بالظبط ما نردده فى التشهد خلال الصلاة إذن هذا أيضا أمر مباشر من الله إذن فنحن أمام أمر مباشر بذلك
Explanation: she is saying, the second point is this, Allah has ordered us directly to Nusalim Ala Mohammad, then she mentoned the verse, they she added that this verse part od the verse came after stating that Allah and the Angels Yusalimo ala Mohammad, she confirmed that the Salat of Allah on Mohammad is difrenet to the Salat of Angels on Mohammad, , I got confused with she is saying really, I think she is trying to say that Allah only Salim ala Moahmmad and Ibrahim (she never provided the Ibrahim verse), then she compared this with what we say at the end of every salat ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al tashahud????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? when we say the Salam on Mmohammad and Ibrahim, she ended up by saying I,e, it is a direct order from Allah and we must follow it.
Ahmed says:
Honestly sister I believe that verse 33:35 you posted is one of the most abused verses in the Quran, this is obvious from the following important fact: In the following verse, we see that the prophet (pbuh) is commanded to "YUSSALLEE" for the believers, just as they are asked to do it for him as you have shown in your own comment
Here is the order for Mohammad to Yusali on the believers::
خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِم بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ صَلاَتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَّهُمْ وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ (103)
[The Quran ; 9:103]
Can you see this important note in the verse dear sister: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and pray for them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Quote:
اما عن نقطة عدم التفريق بين الرسل كما قال الله سبحانه وتعالى فى كتابة فالتفرقة هنا ليست فى التبجيل أو الاحترام ولكن فى الايمان بهم جميعا
بأن كل منهم جاء برسالة من الله سبحانه وتعالى ولاحظ أن الله سبحانه وتعالى قال لا نفرق بين أحد من رسله وليس رسله وأنبياءه وهذا يعنى الرسل الذين جاءوا بكتب من الله
Explanation: she is saying, regarding the distinction between the messengers, she said that Allah means the distinction in belief and not in respect,
in a way she is saying that it is ok for humans to make distinctions between the messengers
then she added, an important note that Allah said ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Make no distinction between the RUSUL????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and not RUSUL and ANBIAA I.e the ones who came with messages, but not the Anbiaa who came with no message
in a way she is confused, because she is thinking that the Quran only said ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Make no distinction between the RUSUL????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, then she said RUSUL are those who came with messages, I.e BOOKS, i.e. we can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any distinction between those who came with books ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????INCLUDING MOHAMMAD, MOSES AND JESUS????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? but we can make distinctions between tose who came with no books
Total non sense if you ask me, indeed the Quran told us to not to make any distinction between the RUSLUL and the ANBIAA, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s see what I told her a year ago:
Ahmed says:
Dear sister, your point that the differentiation is only restricted to the believe ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Iman????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? does not make sense at all, because what you are saying means it is ok to differentiate in the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? التبجيل أو الاحترام????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????PRAISE AND RESPECT????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, simply the Quran said ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????We should not make no distinction????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and never specifically stated in what subject we should or we should not make no distinction.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry sister I disagree with your understanding regarding the differentiation between the messengers and the anbiaa, I accept that a messenger is a nabi with a message, but you see the messengers ar also anbiaa, which means a prophet without a message, so no difference really, the Quran will confirm this, please have a look at the following verses:
آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ (285)
[The Quran ; 2:285]
I agree that in verse 2:285 it says ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِه????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t not make any distinction between any of His messengers????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????but in the following verse it does not say this sister, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s have a look:
The difference is very clear sister : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????and what the ANBIAA were given, we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any distinction between any of them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see
That warning was stressed in a third location:
قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ (84)
[The Quran ; 3:84]
Very clear again sister : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????And what Moses and Isa were given, and the ANBIAA, we make no distinction between any of them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
The above 3 verses must conclude that all true believers should not make no distinction (regardless respect or not) between any of the Messengers or the Anbiaa
Quote:
. أما عن الاحترام والتبجيل فانظر إلى الله سبحانه وتعالى هو ذاته وضع كل منهم فى مكان فقد اختص موسى بكلامه واختص عيسى بإحياء الموتى وشفاء المرضى كما استجاب لدعوة سليمان وجعل له ملكا لا ينبغى لأحد من بعده.
إذن قد جعل الله سبحانه وتعالى لكل منهم ميزة خاصة به
Explanation:She saying that regarding PRAISE and RESPECT, Allah Himself differentiated between them, He spoke to Moses, He made Isa revives the dead, He gave Solaiman a huge Kingdom that no one will ever have, I.e. Allah clearly differentiated between them.
Ahmed says:
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry again sister, Allah is the one who differentiated between the prophets and He explained this to us:
تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ وَآتَيْنَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَيَّدْنَاهُ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلَ الَّذِينَ مِن بَعْدِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَلَكِنِ اخْتَلَفُواْ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ آمَنَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن كَفَرَ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا اقْتَتَلُواْ وَلَكِنَّ اللّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ (253)
[The Quran ; 2:253]
Dear sister, I understand that Allah (swt) has differentiated between His messengers and anbiaa as He told us above, but why you think the humans should do the same as Allah(swt) despite Allah (swt) has warned us in three locations not to make any distinctions between the prophets, In fact Allah has told us to take Ibrahim (pbuh) as a good example ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Iswattan hassnah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? to us:
قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ إِذْ قَالُوا لِقَوْمِهِمْ إِنَّا بُرَءَاؤاْ مِنكُمْ وَمِمَّا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ كَفَرْنَا بِكُمْ وَبَدَا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ الْعَدَاوَةُ وَالْبَغْضَاء أَبَدًا حَتَّى تُؤْمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ إِلَّا قَوْلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ لِأَبِيهِ لَأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ وَمَا أَمْلِكُ لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن شَيْءٍ رَّبَّنَا عَلَيْكَ تَوَكَّلْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ أَنَبْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ (4)
[The Quran ; 60:4]
Quote:
ثم اختص الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام بمنزلة أخرى تمثلت فى توليه إمامة الصلاة بهم فى المسجد الأقصى. وهذا له دلاله هامة وسبب هام ألا وهو إشارة بضرورة اتبعاه هو بوصفه إمامهم. إن شريعة كل منهم التى لا نفرق بين أى منها حيث أنها كلها جائت تدعو إلى الله الواحد الأحد وإلى الاسلام قد نسخت بشريعة من جاء بعده أى لا ينبغى العمل بها بعد ما جاء بعده الرسول الآخر حتى نصل إلى النبى الخاتم الذى ينبغى علينا اتباعه هو فقط وهذا تمثل فى أمر الله سبحانه وتعالى باتباعه فى القرآن وأمره لنا بحبه وتبجيله لأن من أحب شخصا حرص على تقليده فى كل شئ وهذا هو المطلوب.
والله أعلم
Explanation: She is saying, with Mohammad, Allah has put him in a higher lever by making him lead the prayers with all the prophets and messengers, in the night of Israa in Al Masjid Al Aqsa, i.e. Mohammad is their IMAM, then she added that Allah ended His messages with Mohammad and that is enough to follow him alone, then she added that we should follow him in the Quran and we were ordered to LOVE Mohammed and praising him in the Quran, because when you love someone you should be keen to take him as an Idol and do what he used to do and that is what is requested, and Allah knows best
Obviously she lied again and said that we were ordered to love Mohammad in the Quran, I have never seen a verse ordering the believers as such, but can you see HOW SHE ADMITTED THE IDOL WORSHIPING BY REPLICTING A BELOVED HUMAN IN WHAT HE DOES?, please bear in mind that this idol worshipping is motivated by LOVE as she claimed, and yet this love to Mohammad was never ordered in the Quran, the verse she presented clearly says: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????IF YOU LOVE ALLAH THEN FOLLOW ME????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
She somehow is motivated by her shirk, she manipulated the verse to mean the LOVE OF MOHAMMAD while the verse is talking about the LOVE OF ALLAH, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s see what I told her then:
Ahmed says:
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry again sister, the story of the prophet (pbuh) praying as Imam with all the prophets is not mentioned in the Quran, while the Isra trip was mentioned, have you asked yourself why?
So I can not take it for granted that the prophet prayed as Imam with all the prophets but what I will take for granted that Ibrahim (pbuh) was made Imam to all of us by Allah:
وَإِذِ ابْتَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لاَ يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ (124)
[The Quran ; 2:124]
Quote:
لا أدرى إن كنت قد أضفت شيئا إن أصبت فمن الله سبحانه وتعالى وإن أخطأت فمن نفسى والشيطان أعاذنا الله منه
وإن شاء الله إذا تبادر إلى ذهنى شئ آخر أقوم بالتعليق عليه ومعذرة على طول الرسالة
Explanation:, she is ending this round by saying, she does not know if she added anything but if she is right then it is from Allah and if she is wrong then it is from herself and the devil, then she seeked refuge by Allah from the devil and said, if she can find anything else to add, inshallah she will, she also apologised for her lengthy comment
Ahmed says:
Jazaki Allah khairan dear sister, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m really enjoying discussing these important issues with you, may Allah direct us to the right path
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m really sorry about my long reply but I thought I have to put my view complete, I actually cut it short too
Peace be with you and I will be looking forward for your reply, take your time sister there is no rush
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu 12 Apr, 2007 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 11:26 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Ok brothers and sisters, the above was round one, still more to come, hopefully tomorrow inshallah, but can you see how many times she resorted to the Quran as evidences, hardly two times
I wonder regarding those women who think they can preach religons to men while they are already confused and provide zilkh strong Quran argument, I'm not against women doing that but I say they should show the men that they are well versed in the Arabic Quran, they are well versed in the hadith which something I concede but that thing called hadith was never sanctioned in the Quran for us to take it as divine from Allah
Her problem is, she considered herself on a mission of helping me out of the misguidance that I'm going through, while on the other my mission was only to expose her to herself.
Good night all, I will continue tomorrow with round two inshalllh _________________ http://free-islam.com
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu 12 Apr, 2007 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Wed 11 Apr, 2007 11:34 pm
Al-Quraishi Site Admin
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The Isra wa Miraj hadith is one of the biggest obvious splinters in the Sunni doctrine.
Years ago this was one of the first issues that sent alarm bells ringing in my head with traditionalist beliefs. I was suspicious as soon as I first read it.
Also, this issue in particular can be refuted from SO MANY angles it's unbelievable coverers still have the gall, nay, the arrogance to defend the undefendable. It's so easy to show this issue up with the Qur'an, and yet it's impossible to defend such blasphemous views astaghfirullah.
We can firstly refute the authenticity of the hadith itself due to its sheer size, transmission, occurrence and collection; we can also refute it with what happens to souls when they die i.e. the issue that all the messengers were praying behind the Prophet (saw), and most importantly we can refute the heinous blasphemy this hadith is sending out, the list goes on and on and on.
Astaghfirullah
Posted:
Thu 12 Apr, 2007 6:20 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Salam brothers and sisters
Let me continue with this so I finish it off quick as I have a lot of work to do in the next few days,
This is round 2 between myself and sister Muslimah who is an admin on www.islammessage.com
Quote:
بسم الله
السلام عليكم اخى الكريم
أولا وقبل أن استمر فى هذه المهمة أود أن استطلع الغرض من اتصال حضرتك بى وإثارة هذه النقط معى
Explanation:, Sister Muslimah is saying the following: Firstly and before I continue in this mission I would like to know what is the reason that you contacted me and raised all these issues with me?
It is obvious that I got her mind thinking now, however she seems a bit puzzled, I really feel that she does not understand that my main objective is to expose her to herself using the Quran, the book she claims to understand and ponder upon all the time, I also believe she might be thinking that I;m sort of building a cult and looking for followers
Well, I really don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t want anyone to follow me, I only want all to follow what they are comfortable with, however if you will accuse others of being flawed according to what they believe in then you need to provide evidences that they are flawed
That is exactly what the sunni and shia cult followers do with us who either reject the whole hadith or part of it, they accuse us of Kufr while they never provide any Quran evidence that we committed Kufr.
On the other hand this is also what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m doing to them, I accuse them of Shirk while I present compelling Quran evidences to support my accusations
That is what I did with many members om Free Minds as well, I accused them of Kufr and presented compelling Quran evidences to support my accusations, what they did in reply was really useless, they became offended and defensive then they attack me or ban me
Indeed they is also what I did with FFI, I proved that they are biased, confused, double faced, hypocrites and have double standards, what they did in reply, again nothing, either they attacked me or ban me
Again this is what I did on Liberty Unites, the exact bloody same, and they ended up doing the exact same.
Some may say, it has to be something wrong with me, which I agree it may look possible, however when I looked at this issue closely I found that those who want to shut me up yet enjoy reading what I write, therefore I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not going to consider the matter as a flaw at my end due to this fact alone, this is one main reason I launched free-islam, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t want to be controlled by others who think they can shut me up at any time they wish, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a free man and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m free to say what I want to say as long as I have a cause to say it, you want to describe me as a vulgar, rude or whatever person, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t really care, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m going to be who I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m every day I live, this makes life really easy for me, just be who I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m. one of the things that always been in myself since I was a kid is simply, I confront anyone if there is a reason for it and regardless the subject, whatever it is, religion, politics, family, or just the day to day life,
Let me stop this apologetic session and get back to work
This is what I said in reply to her question:
Ahmed says:
Peace sister
There is no hidden "Gharad" (objective) sister, just trying to see if really a Muslim like me and you are true Muslims, or just another case of being raised and following the parents and the traditions, like the Jews and the Christians.
Quote:
هذا أولا وثانيا
ومعذرة إذا كانت اللغة لن تسعفنى وتعبر تعبيرا صحيحا عما أود أن اقوله وبرجاء عدم إخذ التعليق بصورة غير لائقة حضرتك من النوعية التى تحب الجدل وكما هو معلوم لدينا فى الأحاديث الشريفة اننا نهينا عن الجدل بمعنى أن حضرتك تأخذ كل جملة وترد عليها سواء كان الرد منطقى أو لا لمجرد توفير الرد وهذا هو الجدل
Explanation: She is saying: secondly I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry that the language is not helping me to express what I want to say, so please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t take my comments as rude, you are one of those who like arguing and it is known to us in the holy hadith that we were ordered not to argue, and you just do that by replying to every sentence regardless your reply is logical or not, not to pass the argument, and that is what is called arguing
hmmmm, what was that really?. I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m actually reading it now and realized that there was a lot to be said to Muslimah which I didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t do a year ago when I write this, so I will take the chance and add new info from the Quran to expose her ignorance and lack of Quran knowledge
as you can see clearly that she is trying to force a law me, that law is not to argue, on the other hand she is saying that this law is from the HOLY HADITH, can you see her clear cut shirk?
1) firstly she called the hadith HOLY as the Quran
2) Secondly she wants to force a law on me that roughly is this ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????IT IS HARAM TO ARGUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Now here is what I should have said to her a year ago
1) The Quran encourages arguing in at least two locations as far as my memory remembers, I will add this in a separate comment later on inshallallah
2) The Quran prevents all of us of saying ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????THIS IS HARAM AND THAT IS HALAL????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? unless it is sanctioned by Allah, and because Allah encouraged argument in the Quran as I will prove later then her law that arguing is Haram must be dismissed because it is not sanctioned by Allah, rather by her man made hadith that she described as HOLY ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????SHARIF????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Here is what I said to her a year ago:
Ahmed says:
I'm sorry sister, I don't gadal (argue) unless I have a strong argument and I did pass very strong arguments and I believe it is going to be hard to find the right answer for it, I use my brain as Allah told us to do, I don't follow Zunn (conjectures) , as most Muslims do
Quote:
وأيضاحا لهذه النقطة أنت أطلت فى الرد على أول نقطة وهى فرض الصلاة فى رحلة المعراج ووفرت الآيات التى تدل على وجوب الصلاة على من هم قبلنا وفرض الصلاة على الأمم السابقة وفاتك مثلا أن تأتى بآية أداء مريم للصلاة
Explanation: She is saying that I my reply to the first point of salat was very lengthy, as you provided verses that talks about the salat done by previous people like virgin Mary, (you should spared these verse and not post it)
I really wonder, why she was upset with the many Quran verses posted?, aren????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t we ordered to ponder upon the Quran?
Opps, I missed that she is one of those Muslims who prefers to ponder upon the man made hadith, my mistake I guess
Here is what I told her:
Ahmed says:
Sorry sister I actually cut it short, you see when I post a lot of verses from the Quran, most Muslims get upset, but if I would have posted many hadiths, they would have cheered,
Quote:
أخى كل هذا معلوم لدينا بل والأكثر منه أن الرسول صلى لله عليه وسلم كان يتعبد علىملة ابراهيم ويصلى على ملة ابراهيم
ولكن لم يكن هذا هو حال العرب عند بداية الرسالة بل كانوا يصلون لللآلهه والأصنام كما هو معلوم لدينا وبالتالى لم تكن الصلاة بمفمهوها المعلوم لدينا قد فرضت فرضا أى ركنا من أركان الآسلام على المسلمين وهذا ما حدث فى رحلة المعراج ولكن حضرتك فضلت أن تطيل وتأتى بالآيات وتبدأ بأنا آسف يا اختى وتنتقل من آية لأخرى لا لغرض الا فقط لأن تأتى بحجة
Explanation: she is saying, Brother, it is very well known to us that all these people performed salat, more, we know that the prophet salla allah alyihi wa sallam was following milat Ibrahim, the prophet was worshipping and praying according to milat Ibrahim, but that was not the case of the Arabs when the message of Islam was sent down, they were worshipping gods and statues as we know, therefore the salat as we we know it was made law and a pillar of Islam on Muslims and this happened on the Miraj trip, but you preferred to make a lengthy comment and post many verses while you started your comment by saying, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sorry sister then move from a verse to another for only one purpose which is to provide an evidence.
Man, I tried to translate what she said exactly so you can see that she talks total non sense, of course I have to provide a Hujja (an evidence) and what else I provide but Quran verses, she is clearly a confused Muslim woman, may Allah guides her
Here is what I said:
Ahmed says:
My evidences from the Quran is very strong and will stun anyone who thinks they are following the true guidance of Allah, for me most Muslims are following their parents and traditions, exactly like the Christians and the Jews.
Quote:
ونحن عندمانتحدث فى أمر علينا أن نخلص النية لله سبحانه وتعالى لا لاستعراض العلم وهذا أمر آخر لاحظته أن حضرتك مفتون بعلمك وانت لا تخفى ذلك بل أعلنته صراحة على المنتدىحينا قلت لى أنك متواضعة ولكن أنا عندى علم
Explanation: she is saying, when we debate we should make our intention very sincere to Allah subahanagu wa taala, not to show off the knowledge, and this is what I have noticed on your side, you are showing off your knowledge (Maftun), and you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t hide this but you clearly expressed on the forum, you also said to me that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m down to earth woman but you have knowledge
Mates, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t really know what she is trying to say, but can you see that she started to shift the subject to attack my personality as if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m flawed, well let me say this, if I think that I posses Quran knowledge, why the hell I have to hide it?, makes no sense to me,
So an experienced doctor won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t show off his knowledge?
Well she can prove my knowledge wrong as long as she brings Quran evidences, and so far she mostly talks hadith
Here is what I said a year ago:
Ahmed says:
I don't know what you mean exactly, but my knowledge is something I wanted , and I worked hard for it, I take Allah words for granted and I care less about any human words and surely I don't follow my parents and traditions.
Quote:
حذار يا أخى فهذا مدخل خطير من مداخل الشيطان والله وحده يعلم بنيتى وأنا أقول لك هذا الكلام حذار يا اخى لا تجعل الشيطان يفتنك بعلمك ولك فى قصة موسى والعبد فى سورة الكهف عظة ومثلا
والى اللقاء ان شاء الله
وتقبل الله منا ومنك الطاعات
Explanation: she is ending her reply to my comment by saying, be warned brother, you have entered a very dangerous place, an entry for the devil, Allah alone knows my intention while I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m saying this to you, be warned brother and don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t allow the devil to flaw you using your knowledge, you should learn something from the story of Moses and the slave in sura Al kahf, talk to you soon inshallah and may Allah accept our deeds and our obedience to Him
I actually did not reply to her comment above, it meant nothing to me really, she is using a weak argument trying to stop me from questioning my religion as inherited from my parents and the traditions,
If she thinks the Muslims now days are right, then why Allah is not sticking by them?
Why they are divided, poor and ignorant
They even kill each other, and guess what, it all started from the hadith 150 years after the prophet died
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Fri 13 Apr, 2007 12:38 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted:
Fri 13 Apr, 2007 12:05 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Zayd wrote:
The Isra wa Miraj hadith is one of the biggest obvious splinters in the Sunni doctrine.
Of course mate, even Rashad Khlifah made up a story about a dream he had based on that hadith, that all prophet came to him and sort of praised him, what a load of non sense man
Zayd wrote:
Years ago this was one of the first issues that sent alarm bells ringing in my head with traditionalist beliefs. I was suspicious as soon as I first read it.
while I don't deny the Miracle of Israa and Miraj, however I found a lot of fairy tales has been attached to it
It's enough for me to believe that Allah asraa bi Mohammad from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa then He araj him to the heaven to show him some of His miracles so his belief in his mission is soldified. That's all and no more.
Zayd wrote:
Also, this issue in particular can be refuted from SO MANY angles it's unbelievable coverers still have the gall, nay, the arrogance to defend the undefendable. It's so easy to show this issue up with the Qur'an, and yet it's impossible to defend such blasphemous views astaghfirullah.
Fine with me if they wish to defend it however they need to bring Quran evidences only
Zayd wrote:
We can firstly refute the authenticity of the hadith itself due to its sheer size, transmission, occurrence and collection;
and its logic as well
Zayd wrote:
we can also refute it with what happens to souls when they die i.e. the issue that all the messengers were praying behind the Prophet (saw), and most importantly we can refute the heinous blasphemy this hadith is sending out, the list goes on and on and on.
Astaghfirullah
[/quote]
I actually have no problem in believing this story that Mohammad was an Imam to them while they prayed in Al Masjid Al Aqsa, however there is no outcome for me as a result of believing in that story
well, if a group will pray together, someone must be an Imam for them, normally the Imam is the most knowledgable one in them, and why not that Mohammad was the most knoweldgable in Islam at the time, makes sense to me that he was the most knowledgable (remember, the knowledge is from Allah)
but I'm not going to use that hadith to suggest that Mohammad is in a higher level than the rest of the prophets because this matter only belongs to Allah, He deffrentiats between His prophets and messnegers the way He wishes, humans has nothing to do with that, on the other hand He ordered us at least 3 times in the Quran to make no distinction between all of His messengers and prophets
A quick note dear brother, if you are going to say "Salla Allah ala Mohammad" after Mohammad name, please put the name of Allah complete and don't follow the sunni footeseps by abbraviating it to the letter A while you put the name Mohammad complete, just an advice bro, it really hurts me when I see Muslim doing that
You may say that the letter a in (saw) is representing "ala" and not Allah, , this will make it even worse mate, you totally elimintaed Allah from the sentence while Mohammad stayed
I say as a safety net, not to write it and just say it in your heart and mind when you write the name Mohammad or any other prophet and messenger
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam brother and sisters
Before I move on to round 3 I would like to add some info as I promised in my last comment
It was obvious that Sister Muslimah of www.islammessage.com has stated that I like to argue, then she said that we were FORBIDDEN in the HOLY HADITH ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Hadith Al Sharif????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? from arguing, later on she accused me of following the footsteps of the Shaitan,
She never provided a Quran evidence to support any of the above claims, for example she should have told me what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m doing as an example of following the Shaitan, all she did that we were forbidden in the HOLY HADITH to argue
Well, sort of she was trying to make me fear then this fear will lead me to stop arguing, this is exactly what the enemy of Islam say about us on FFI, they say we were brainwashed in our early days to not to argue or we will be following the foot steps of the Shaitan, haha, we must excuse the Enemy of Islam, because ironically this is 100% true, however tis fear does not apply to me any more
Let me expose sister Muslimah ignorance and prove that we are allowed to argue if we have a point and can back ourselves by any of the followings:
1) Knowledge
2) Guidance
3) Divine Book
Firstly let me start by a verse from the story of prophet Noah, he was always involved in disputes with his people so they told him the followings:
They said: O Nuh! indeed you have disputed with us and lengthened dispute with us, therefore bring to us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful ones. [The Quran ; 11:32]
قَالُواْ يَا نُوحُ قَدْ جَادَلْتَنَا فَأَكْثَرْتَ جِدَالَنَا فَأْتَنِا بِمَا تَعِدُنَا إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ (32)
-> See what they told Noah :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? قَدْ جَادَلْتَنَا فَأَكْثَرْتَ جِدَالَنَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? indeed you have disputed with us and lengthened dispute with us????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if arguing is forbidden as a sanctioned law by Allah, then Noah should not INCREASE his arguments against his people, however he kept doing it without rest until they got sick of him
Of course Noah had a point against his people, i.e. he was backing up his arguments, but when they were overwhelmed with his strong arguments, they replied by ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? indeed you have disputed with us and lengthened dispute with us????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT SISTER MUSLIMAH TOLD ME, subhan Allah, I just discovered this now
What is funny is this, she gave herself the right to argue with me, but for me I can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t argue with her because according to her HOLY HADITH, it is haram to argue, what a load of non sense brothers and sisters, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s move on
Let me remind you brothers and sisters with this verse:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- This is lawful, and this is forbidden, so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? [The Quran ; 6:116]
وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَا تَصِفُ أَلْسِنَتُكُمُ الْكَذِبَ هَذَا حَلاَلٌ وَهَذَا حَرَامٌ لِّتَفْتَرُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَفْتَرُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ لاَ يُفْلِحُونَ (116)
-> See how the verse started????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,-????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see how what is about to be said is already described as FALSE, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s see what we should never say : ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? هَذَا حَلاَلٌ وَهَذَا حَرَامٌ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????? This is lawful, and this is forbidden????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, again it was described as lies associated to Allah: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? لِّتَفْتَرُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ ٌ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? so as to ascribe false things to Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the problem for those who suggest that this is Halal and that is Haram as simply as follow:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
See, how she said that something is HARAM while the Quran is allowing us to do it. i.e. this is what she has done ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? so as to ascribe false things to Allah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, well the same verse is telling us at the end: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, sounds like sister Muslimah falls under this category
Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s see prophet Ibrahim ARGUING to spare the lives of the people of prophet Lut:
So when fear had gone away from Ibrahim and good news came to him, he began to plead with Us for Lut's people. [The Quran ; 11:74]
فَلَمَّا ذَهَبَ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الرَّوْعُ وَجَاءتْهُ الْبُشْرَى يُجَادِلُنَا فِي قَوْمِ لُوطٍ (74)
-> See how prophet Ibrahim argued in something THAT HE SHOULD NOT ARGUE ABOUT,. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? يُجَادِلُنَا فِي قَوْمِ لُوطٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, translated as ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? he began to plead with Us for Lut's people.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Even on the JD every soul will argue for itself:
(Remember) the day when every soul shall come, pleading for itself and every soul shall be paid in full what it has done, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly. [The Quran ; 16:111]
يَوْمَ تَأْتِي كُلُّ نَفْسٍ تُجَادِلُ عَن نَّفْسِهَا وَتُوَفَّى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَّا عَمِلَتْ وَهُمْ لاَ يُظْلَمُونَ (111)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? يَوْمَ تَأْتِي كُلُّ نَفْسٍ تُجَادِلُ عَن نَّفْسِهَا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, translated as: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (Remember) the day when every soul shall come, pleading for itself????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
I agree that the Quran indirectly prohibited arguing, but that was conditioned:
And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and without guidance and without an illuminating book [The Quran ; 22:8]
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ (8)
-> See, you should not argue without: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????:
1) knowledge
2) guidance
3) illuminating book
I have to eliminate the guidance out of the discussion because that is a matter that belongs to Allah and no one can know if they are guided or not, we just believe that we are,
For the Knowledge, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m going to drop this one also because sister Muslimah didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t appreciate my knowledge, she thinks I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m fooling myself and just a show off.
Now this is my strongest argument, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m using an ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Illuminating Book (The Quran)????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? to back up my ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Jadal????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? (disputes) against her, she on the other hand resorts to other books along with the Quran to back up her claims against Allah, can you see her clear cut shirk?
Humans argue because that is how Allah made us, so making it prohibited make absolutely no sense:
And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention. [The Quran ; 18:54]
وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا (54)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَكَانَ الْإِنسَانُ أَكْثَرَ شَيْءٍ جَدَلًا????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????and man is most of all given to contention.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see how in the same verse Allah told us: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا فِي هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لِلنَّاسِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the Illuminating Book, the only book I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m using to argue with her and the likes of her.
Status: Age: 117 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 70
Post subject:
Salam,
Quote:
while I don't deny the Miracle of Israa and Miraj, however I found a lot of fairy tales has been attached to it
Of course, it's in the Qur'an after all.
Quote:
Of course mate, even Rashad Khlifah made up a story about a dream he had based on that hadith, that all prophet came to him and sort of praised him, what a load of non sense man
!!! My Goodness! That's new news to me mate, scary, have his followers given any explanation to this?
Quote:
It's enough for me to believe that Allah asraa bi Mohammad from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa then He araj him to the heaven to show him some of His miracles so his belief in his mission is soldified. That's all and no more.
I agree
Quote:
I actually have no problem in believing this story that Mohammad was an Imam to them while they prayed in Al Masjid Al Aqsa, however there is no outcome for me as a result of believing in that story
well, if a group will pray together, someone must be an Imam for them, normally the Imam is the most knowledgable one in them, and why not that Mohammad was the most knoweldgable in Islam at the time, makes sense to me that he was the most knowledgable (remember, the knowledge is from Allah)
This isn't the main point of the issue, the issue is what the other prophets were doing there in the first place if in fact they were dead. Lame excuses for this issue are given by dogmatists.
Quote:
but I'm not going to use that hadith to suggest that Mohammad is in a higher level than the rest of the prophets because this matter only belongs to Allah, He deffrentiats between His prophets and messnegers the way He wishes, humans has nothing to do with that, on the other hand He ordered us at least 3 times in the Quran to make no distinction between all of His messengers and prophets
Excatly, another reason for this hadith raising suspicion.
Quote:
A quick note dear brother, if you are going to say "Salla Allah ala Mohammad" after Mohammad name, please put the name of Allah complete and don't follow the sunni footeseps by abbraviating it to the letter A while you put the name Mohammad complete, just an advice bro, it really hurts me when I see Muslim doing that
You may say that the letter a in (saw) is representing "ala" and not Allah, , this will make it even worse mate, you totally elimintaed Allah from the sentence while Mohammad stayed
I say as a safety net, not to write it and just say it in your heart and mind when you write the name Mohammad or any other prophet and messenger
Good advice bro, on this issue, I've been told saying Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam is prescribed in the Qur'an after saying the Prophet's name, I haven't come across it though, have you read it?
A point on this issue, if it is prescribed, perhaps we can add the Arabic (s. Allahu a.ws.) GIF to our smileys because of this issue as well as Alayhi Salam...
Posted:
Fri 13 Apr, 2007 9:09 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Zayd wrote:
Salam,
Salam bro
Quote:
while I don't deny the Miracle of Israa and Miraj, however I found a lot of fairy tales has been attached to it
Zayd wrote:
Of course, it's in the Qur'an after all.
we can't elmintae the possibilty that it the Israa and Miraj is also a dream, but one of those that is true, like the one Yusuf had and told his father about it
Quote:
Of course mate, even Rashad Khlifah made up a story about a dream he had based on that hadith, that all prophet came to him and sort of praised him, what a load of non sense man
Zayd wrote:
!!! My Goodness! That's new news to me mate, scary, have his followers given any explanation to this?
Yeh mate it is true, R K however stressed that it was a truthful dream
Quote:
It's enough for me to believe that Allah asraa bi Mohammad from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa then He araj him to the heaven to show him some of His miracles so his belief in his mission is soldified. That's all and no more.
Zayd wrote:
I agree
Cheers
Quote:
I actually have no problem in believing this story that Mohammad was an Imam to them while they prayed in Al Masjid Al Aqsa, however there is no outcome for me as a result of believing in that story
well, if a group will pray together, someone must be an Imam for them, normally the Imam is the most knowledgable one in them, and why not that Mohammad was the most knoweldgable in Islam at the time, makes sense to me that he was the most knowledgable (remember, the knowledge is from Allah)
Zayd wrote:
This isn't the main point of the issue, the issue is what the other prophets were doing there in the first place if in fact they were dead. Lame excuses for this issue are given by dogmatists.
Sure, however if we consider that it might have been a truthful dream then why not? rememebr it was decribed in the Quran as "Roaya" which is an arbic words that also refer to dreams.
Quote:
but I'm not going to use that hadith to suggest that Mohammad is in a higher level than the rest of the prophets because this matter only belongs to Allah, He deffrentiats between His prophets and messnegers the way He wishes, humans has nothing to do with that, on the other hand He ordered us at least 3 times in the Quran to make no distinction between all of His messengers and prophets
Zayd wrote:
Excatly, another reason for this hadith raising suspicion.
regardless what the hadith say, the hadith will always stay as conjectures
Quote:
A quick note dear brother, if you are going to say "Salla Allah ala Mohammad" after Mohammad name, please put the name of Allah complete and don't follow the sunni footeseps by abbraviating it to the letter A while you put the name Mohammad complete, just an advice bro, it really hurts me when I see Muslim doing that
You may say that the letter a in (saw) is representing "ala" and not Allah, , this will make it even worse mate, you totally elimintaed Allah from the sentence while Mohammad stayed
I say as a safety net, not to write it and just say it in your heart and mind when you write the name Mohammad or any other prophet and messenger
Zayd wrote:
Good advice bro,
Thanks mate, I'm glad you took it the right way
Zayd wrote:
on this issue, I've been told saying Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam is prescribed in the Qur'an after saying the Prophet's name,
absolutely not
Zayd wrote:
I haven't come across it though, have you read it?
it does not exist in the Quran bro
what is in the Quran is simply a statemnet of a fact, that Allah and His angels Yusalu ala the prophet, the salam was never mentuoned even, there is a nice thread about tis subject call Praising the prophet by brother Life, please read it if you can
Zayd wrote:
A point on this issue, if it is prescribed, perhaps we can add the Arabic (s. Allahu a.ws.) GIF to our smileys because of this issue as well as Alayhi Salam...
I can do that if you like however it should be used with all prophets and it is regading the Salat only, not the Salam
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My Goodness! That's new news to me mate, scary, have his followers given any explanation to this?
