AhmedBahgat
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Age: 58
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Posts: 3236
Location: Australia
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| Post subject: 4:34 Again |
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| AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Baal
do you agree that the verse says to beat the ill conduct ones?
if you agree then, end of discussion
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| Baal wrote:
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See How Allah's Plan is Complete
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Of course it has to be complete, he is the God, you know
Hello Baal
| Baal wrote:
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I do not agree verse 4:34 is just about beating the ill conduct ones.
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Hmm, so you are suggesting that it is about the good conduct wives as well, hmmm, are you insane bro?
Well, the same verse says Izohuna, i.e. Advice them politely, so what do you think a good conduct wife needs a a polite advice for?
| Baal wrote:
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The verse said "Fear Discord"
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Of course it says that, but wait a second, why I have to politely advice a good conduct wife?, is a good conduct wife will be involved in any discord you reckon?
This is the Arabic mister Arabic speaker, let's look at a few verses from the Quran:
And We revealed to Musa's mothers, saying: Give him suck, then when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve; surely We wi!l bring him back to you and make him one of the messengers.
[The Quran ; 28:7]
وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى أُمِّ مُوسَى أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ (7)
-> See what the verse says : فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ, , then when you fear for him, cast him into the river, the same sentence structure exactly as we read in 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, now let me ask you, will the mother of Moses cast him in the river unless it was evident that his life in danger?, if you say bloody yes then I say 4:34 is the bloody same, i.e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE
Let's look at the next example from the Quran
Divorce may be (pronounced) twice, then keep (them) in good fellowship or let (them) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any part of what you have given them, unless both fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah; then if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, there is no blame on them for what she gives up to become free thereby. These are the limits of Allah, so do not exceed them and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah these it is that are the unjust.
[The Quran ; 2:229]
الطَّلاَقُ مَرَّتَانِ فَإِمْسَاكٌ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ تَسْرِيحٌ بِإِحْسَانٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَأْخُذُواْ مِمَّا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ شَيْئًا إِلاَّ أَن يَخَافَا أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا فِيمَا افْتَدَتْ بِهِ تِلْكَ حُدُودُ اللّهِ فَلاَ تَعْتَدُوهَا وَمَن يَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (229)
-> Let me explain this tough verse, I'm sure for a kafir like you it will a tough one to understand that is you even care to understand. The verse is talking about the law of divorce, it is telling us that we are only allowed to divorce our wives twice and if we want to keep them then we have to keep them in good fellowship or we just let them with kindness: Divorce may be (pronounced) twice, then keep (them) in good fellowship or let (them) go with kindness;', you won't bloody see this in the western societies, every divorced westerner that I met, told me how bitter the divorce was between him and his divorced wife, they have to bloody fight in court as you know, now when divorce occur the Muslim husband may take any thing he gave to his wife BUT ONLY if it is proven that she is involved in any discord or the wife know that her husband is involved in any discord and she just want to buy her freedom by giving her ill husband whatever he gave her to get rid of him, , i.e. if the divorced wife is a good conduct wife and the husband is a good conduct husband but divorce is a must, the husband should NEVER take anything he gave her while she was his wife: and it is not lawful for you to take any part of what you have given them , UNLESS unless both fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah , now what comes next is again is a similar structure to 4:34, See what the verse says : فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا فِيمَا افْتَدَتْ بِهِ, then if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, there is no blame on them for what she gives up to become free thereby., the same sentence structure exactly as we read in 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, now how come a wife gives up to become free UNLESS IT IS EVIDENT THAT HER HUSBAND DOES NOT KEEP WITH THE LIMITS OF ALLAH, , i.e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE
Let's move on, we are still discussing martial affairs, Subhan Allah the next verse is 4:35, the one after 4:34, LOL:
And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.
[The Quran ; 4:35]
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِقَاقَ بَيْنِهِمَا فَابْعَثُواْ حَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهَا إِن يُرِيدَا إِصْلاَحًا يُوَفِّقِ اللّهُ بَيْنَهُمَا إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا خَبِيرًا (35)
-> See what the verse says : وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِقَاقَ بَيْنِهِمَا فَابْعَثُواْ حَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهَا, And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people, it is the exact structure as 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, now let me ask you, why the people appoint a judge from his people and a judge from her people?, well because And if you fear a breach between the two, i. bloody e. appointing judges from both familles will never happen UNLESS BREACH HAPPENED BETWEEN THE TWO, , i.e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE. Do you get it bro?, I can feel the big slam dunk coming
Let's move on, we are still discussing martial affairs and we are still in the same sura 4:
And if a woman fears ill usage or desertion on the part of her husband, there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, and reconciliation is better, and avarice has been made to be present in the (people's) minds; and if you do good (to others) and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is aware of what you do.
[The Quran ; 4:128]
وَإِنِ امْرَأَةٌ خَافَتْ مِن بَعْلِهَا نُشُوزًا أَوْ إِعْرَاضًا فَلاَ جُنَاْحَ عَلَيْهِمَا أَن يُصْلِحَا بَيْنَهُمَا صُلْحًا وَالصُّلْحُ خَيْرٌ وَأُحْضِرَتِ الأَنفُسُ الشُّحَّ وَإِن تُحْسِنُواْ وَتَتَّقُواْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا (128)
-> Hmmm, almost the same as 4:34 but it is the other way around, i.e. the wife is fearing ill conduct from her hubby. See what the verse says : وَإِنِ امْرَأَةٌ خَافَتْ مِن بَعْلِهَا نُشُوزًا أَوْ إِعْرَاضًا فَلاَ جُنَاْحَ عَلَيْهِمَا أَن يُصْلِحَا بَيْنَهُمَا صُلْحًا, And if a woman fears ill usage or desertion on the part of her husband, there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, again same structure as 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, now let me ask you, how come the people will try to reconcile between them UNLESS THE WIFE HAS REPORTED THAT IT IS EVIDENT THAT HER HUSBAND IS INVOLVED IN ILL CONDUCT?, I bloody. e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE. the big slam dunk coming is getting closer.
Let's now leave the martial affairs aside and look at some general affairs:
But he who fears an inclination to a wrong course or an act of disobedience on the part of the testator, then reconcile between the parties, there is no blame on him. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[The Quran ; 2:182]
فَمَنْ خَافَ مِن مُّوصٍ جَنَفًا أَوْ إِثْمًا فَأَصْلَحَ بَيْنَهُمْ فَلاَ إِثْمَ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (182)
-> See what the verse says : فَمَنْ خَافَ مِن مُّوصٍ جَنَفًا أَوْ إِثْمًا فَأَصْلَحَ بَيْنَهُمْ, But he who fears an inclination to a wrong course or an act of disobedience on the part of the testator, then reconcile between them, again and again the same structure as 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, now let me ask you again and again, how we can reconcile between a testator and the other party UNLESS THE TESTATOR IS ON WRONG COURSE OR INVOLVED IN AN ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE?, i. bloody e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE. Can I slam dunk now or you reckon I better wait till I finish my comment dear Baal?
Here is a good one:
And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.
[The Quran ; 8:58]
وَإِمَّا تَخَافَنَّ مِن قَوْمٍ خِيَانَةً فَانبِذْ إِلَيْهِمْ عَلَى سَوَاء إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الخَائِنِينَ (58)
-> See what the verse says : وَإِمَّا تَخَافَنَّ مِن قَوْمٍ خِيَانَةً فَانبِذْ إِلَيْهِمْ عَلَى سَوَاء, And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality, again and again the same structure as 4:34 وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, and (as to) those on whose part you fear discord, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them, i. bloody e. we can't throw back to them the same treachery UNLESS TREACHERY IS EVIDENT ON THEIR PART, i. bloody e. the husband won't admonish his wife, and leave her alone in bed and beat her, UNLESS IT IS BLOODY EVIDENT THAT SHE IS AN ILL CONDUCT WIFE. Can at least give you small slam dunk now and the big one after I finish?, just kiddin Baal, you gonna only get one big one at the end.
| Baal wrote:
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, so the wife does not even need to actually do 'ill conduct'.
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Hmmm, you are really confused bro, I provided many logical evidences above please read them well and try to refute them first, they are the same structure as 4:34 which is based on (If .. Then..), you are really being ridiculous to suggest that the verse says do the Then even if there is no If, that is stupid man and I really feel that I'm wasting my valued time with your rants.
| Baal wrote:
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Then there is no Steps to follow.
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The bloody steps is listed in the same verse and in that order, if you want to deny that and say no the verse says do the three options at once then you will be classified as a very stupid man in my books because admonishing them is the opposite of beat them, you just can't do the two at the bloody time.
| Baal wrote:
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She will get talked to AND her bed is empty AND she is beaten up over and over and over until she returns to 'obedience'.
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Hmmm, does the verse says OVER AND OVER AND OVER, please don't lie to prove your case, you wont be able to lie about the Arabic Quran with me, try another Muslim if that is what you want to do
| Baal wrote:
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And if her husband leaves marks on her face, because bruises just happen when you beat someone, then the solution is simple, somewhere else in the islamic system, will make sure her face is covered and the bruises are covered for a duration until they heal, and no one from the Umma is wiser. For the record most domestic abuse is discovered from the bruises on the woman. Her arms, her legs as well as her face.
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I only talk Quran, obviously you need to resort to the fairy tales stories to prove your case against the Quran, again you can try that with another Muslim, I only talk Arabic Quran
| Baal wrote:
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Now the gap of 'ill conduct' between 'fearing discord' and 'returning to obedience' is too wide. It includes beating a wife for refusing sex.
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Hmmm, does the Quran says beat them if they refuse sex?, no it does not so please I ask you humbly not to waste my valued time with those fairy tales non sense, you simply can't prove it, try to talk Quran only with me, ok
| Baal wrote:
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You and me both know how the mind of men work,
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No I don't so please don't speak on my behalf unless I give you permission to do so, I only know how my mind think I dont know how any other human (male of females think) nor I want to know, cheers.
| Baal wrote:
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how can an ilah permit men such a sin in his text?
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I reject your use of the word sin because the sin in here is the ill conduct wife, the husband talked to in verse 4:34 is a wise husband
Exactly as 4:128, the wife is the wise one and the husband is the ill one and the sin here is the actions by ill conduct husband
Please dont be manipulative
| Baal wrote:
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That ilah is not giving a ruling.
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Of course He is, are you bloody confused?
| Baal wrote:
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That ilah is giving a bribe by giving his male enforcers control over the female reproduction system.
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Hmm, as if He told you so, mate please dont act as a jerk, sorry
| Baal wrote:
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So a husband can beat his wife if she refuses to give access to the reproductive system,
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Hmmm, non sense, because the ill conduct is not as you bloody described, what you described is a clear cut manipulation, well, the wife can seek divorce if the husband refuses sex then according to 4:128 and your silly manipulation.
| Baal wrote:
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if the husband exceeds he gets her to cover up,
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What the hell is this?, are you resorting to the confuse all recovery plan?
| Baal wrote:
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all is good in the Umma, many many children are born, education lacks, poverty is abundant, parents are too busy to keep the place and the minds of the children clean. Violence & fundamentalism increase. Blame it on the joos, americans, russians, pixies. Blame it on any evil person that exists on the planet except ourselves. Poor Girls are married young and the cycle starts over.
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Here is my slam dunk mate:
Salam
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